We Have To Live Within The Reality Of Who We Are
Posted: Sun Nov 28, 2021 8:14 am
Speech by Hari on Zoom 23.11.2021 GitaFest Florida
On the occasion of the 50th anniversary of Prabhupada's visit to the Soviet Union
Time 4:22
Hi everybody, hello to you all, Haribol, Hare Krishna and all that! It is good for me if I see video. So that's everybody in Orlando? ("Yes" comes the answer) Hi, all you! (Hari sees the audience on his computer screen)
Time 6:03
Kasisvara: Thank you so much for your time, Hari. We have around 100 devotees here gathered for our Russian festival dedicated to the 50th anniversary of Srila Prabhupada's visit to Moscow. And mainly we are all discussing the early years of preaching in former USSR. So we have already listened to Shyamasundara, Kirtiraja and Haripuja Prabhus yesterday and before yesterday. And, of course, everyone mentiones you because you played, you know, a significant role in the preaching of Krishna consciousness in Soviet Union.
So everyone is excited to here your story. But as we discussed before, you expressed your interest to actually explain 'why' you have being doing all this selfless and fearless preaching activities. So you can just share your stories.
Time 7:15
Hari: Well I only... you asked me to do that, so therefore I said I could, so I expressed interest. Okay I get it. Why? Actually that's a great question. And I think the question of 'why' we do what we do and 'why' we feel like we feel - the underlying motivation - this is all extremely important, and thank you for actually asking that question because it's a great question, and therefore I was interested in that.
I think often when we speak about history, it becomes a relating of events chronologically or according to a subject matter. And sometimes the relating of events takes predominance over the underlying reasons why one does what one does. For me, I think, the 'why' began in Sanand, in Gujarat. It's a kingdom in India. It's a small kingdom but there still was a king. He had a throne, he had a palace, he had his people of the kingdom.
And I went there with Srila Prabhupada, I think this was 1975. And the king received him very nicely and there were many programs there. And he was letting Prabhupada stay in his office. It was an office like any other office but it was filled with books. So Prabhupada being curious happened to take one book out of the shelves, which was a book by Lenin. I think it was called "Dialectic Materialism," where he was speaking about the dialectic method.
And Prabhupada became interested in that. So we started discussing this. And it was at that time that I told him that in college weirdly enough I was considered to be the top student in the Marxist philosophy. Not because I wanted to be a Marxist or Communist, no not at all, but because I found it fascinating. I found the philosophy fascinating, I found the philosophy of "Giving what you can and taking what you need" (fascinating) because it was very much according to our late 1960-is somewhat commune style life style activity, that we were very much into.
So I thought this was an interesting philosophy. But what I thought was even more interesting, was, how that incredibly idealistic philosophy which was categorized as utopian translated into the Soviet system, which was extremely socialistic, which was extremely controlled.
And so I thought it was very interesting to talk about the steps from Marx to Lenin and than on to Trotsky and etc., to Stalin. And well you know the history better than me. So I felt that this was a fascinating subject to discuss, and Prabhupada actually liked to talk about it. So we were talking about it for some time, I don't remember exactly how long, it went on for some days. It became a theme while he was getting a massage or, you know, when I would bring him food for lunch or something - it became a theme.
And than he asked me at the end of it to write a book called "Dialectic Spiritualism", where the same dialectic would be translated into spiritual understanding of thesis, antithesis and synthesis, how you would end up in a spiritual conclusion. So I liked that very much. But I did not take that as a life changing event at that time. A little later, maybe I guess six, eight month later I ended up... he sent me back to... I was supposed to go back to Amerika - funny side story but that doesn't matter - I supposed to take over the Radha Damodara Party. But Tamal Krishna Maharaja told me I was supposed to take one bus, so I was not really interested - they kind of cheated me on that.
So I ended up in London and than Hansadutta, whom I have known before - we were friendly - told me to, "Why don't you go to Eastern Europe and do some program?" And so I started doing programs. And then I wrote that to Prabhupada, and he told me to stay and continue doing things in Eastern Europe.
And than I realized that isn't this interesting? We had this discussion about the book by Lenin and than here I am all of a sudden doing that in a very unexpected way. So in actuality I fell into it. It wasn't like I had this goal in mind when leaving India after taking Sannyasa that I'm going to preach in Eastern Europe, or Russia, Soviet Union or whatever. I did not had that idea in mind, I had a whole different idea in mind. And suddenly I was there doing that. So I felt it was Krishna's arrangement. And considering that, I took it very seriously.
Started off going to Hungary for programs, than went to Poland, for Yugoslavia, Czechoslovakia, Bulgaria, Romania. So at that time I've gone all around, and than I was also helping Kirtiraja to arrange with Ramesvara the book fairs. And we were keeping in contact and everything. I had known Kirtiraja since 1971 in Brooklyn. So than I felt, "Well I can't sent anybody into a situation that I have not myself experienced."
15:30
Like all through Eastern Europe I sent people into places where I have gone first. Not because I had this idea of being a pioneer but because I was worried, I did not want the responsibility of something happening to these people to be on my head. I followed the same idea in the Arabic countries. All the Arabic speaking countries I went there first and than I would arrange for others to go there, because I was not very confident that such a thing could be done. I mean after all, you know, for a Westerner to go preaching a religion in those days into the Soviet Union was dangerous, to say the least. You had no idea where you could end up, you had no idea what might happen to you. You did not know about any guaranty from your own government, who really couldn't care less about Hare Krishnas at that time.
So I decided, well considering that was my philosophy, I had to go first to the Soviet Union, to go inside not as a... not with an education visa or with an invitation from a professor, but to go in as a tourist, to go in to see who I could meet outside of a controlled environment, to see what I could do. So I went with Sucandra, who later became Bhaktibushana Swami, and we went there just to see, just to do a physability study. Is it posible for us to hide who we were, to go in disguise and to meet people, or to see what we could do? Because there were no... there was no program to went into.
When I first went to Hungary, there was a yoga club, and I had an official invitation to that yoga club. So it gave me an excuse to go there, it gave me an excuse to even have public Kirtan in the yoga club. It was allowed because it was invited, it was a cultural event. But this was different, this was more clandestine, which made it far more complex.
Time 18:18
So when I first came, we first landed in Saint Petersburg. And we went places, we went to the university there. And I met a couple of people - first of all even to find somebody who spoke English you had to use excuses like, "Can you tell me where the library is?" or any excuse we used, "Where we can get something to eat?" to try to meet people there in Saint Petersburg (former Leningrad).
And I met like one or two people. Yeah, they were not like very helpful, it was not like it was something that I thought, "yeah, this going to work." (Hari laughs) So I was not very encouraged.
Then we came to Moscow and I managed somehow to get through to Ananta Shanti - who Shyamasundara probably told you all about - and we met in one of those, you know, in Moscow those big Stalin buildings - I don't forgot how many he build all around Moscow. And we were staying in one of them. Oh no, that was another time, sorry. There were a few times in the beginning. No we stayed in that hotel only foreigners were allowed and we walked to that place and we met him outside there.
And we walked to where this group was, there were about eight of them altogether. Some of whom had been in the Institute that Ananta Shanti was working with, or had been to, and he had speaking to them. So when I met this very small group of people and when I went to talk to the head of that Institute - I think it was the Psychic Institute or Metaphysical Institut, I don't remember, Para-Psychological Institute. It was in the bottom actually of, I think it was the KGB building or I wasn't even sure, it was in the basement of this office there.
He wanted to know about Shambala, he wanted to know about all the mystical Indian things. And I was very uncomfortable explaining so I was just telling him what I could and explaining what I could. And than we went back to that group and I was talking with them - Ananta Stanti's group - and I realized these people are really nice, these people they are really inquisitive, they really want to know.
And I was, "Oh, my goodness!" this is cool. No longer is it like, you know, I'm meeting somebody on the street and it's called cold contact, you just come up with somebody cold and you try to work out some relationship. Very difficult to do that. But in this case it was people who Ananta Shanti had spoken to.
Okay, he was a little unusual, a little, a little peculiar as a person, (Hari smiles) and at the same time he didn't really know very much. I'm not trying to diminish his importance, believe me, not at all. But in 1977, '78, in January of '78 when this first took place, he didn't really know very much. And he was getting people involved in the mystical aspect of Indian culture. And so what was fascinating was that these people were primed and ready for the philosophy, the actual philosophy which we, all of us, embraced and appreciated.
And than I understood, my God! this could be huge. It's not that they just like - because previously I only met with that - you know, the scientific minded people or the very... people who saw what they could get out of it mystically. But these people were actually embracing philosophy, they were actually embracing the principles of spirituality, which were so universally acceptable and were so applicable to their situation now in the Soviet Union, where it was based on extremely pure materialism.
And then I was starting to uncover and understand more how significant the church had been in Russia. Something which, you know, we in the West did not know. You know we were as under the control of propaganda about Soviet Union, as you... well, a lot of you were young, you don't even know what I'm talking about. So that's something else. But for those of you who are in your, I don't know, 60is and 70is, you know it really well. 50is you may know something like when you were a kid, but you had your propaganda, we had our propaganda. And so I was trained to believe, you know, you people were atheists, all atheists, you were all atheists and you didn't have any concern whatsoever.
So I went there thinking, you know, this is going to be a big job, it's a big job to convince you atheistic, you know, demoniac society about God. But when I got there and I was talking to this small group, I realized Russians are I incredibly theistic, they're incredibly interested in spiritual things, they love esoteric spirituality, they love these concepts. And than I was like, "Oh my God! I thought this is going to be a coal mine, it turned out to be a gold mine."
So "why" changed entirely? Originally it was the... Well, you know, sometimes we get the savior complex, we think we're going to go to a place and save people, we're going to, you know, we're going to come descending in on our white horses, the night and shining armor and we're going to save people. So, in my own bewildered manner I thought like that. You know, it's going to be tuff but, you know, well, maybe save one person or two people, who knows?
Instead it turned out to be this fascinating group of people, who... The 'why' changed entirely, for me the savior complex dissolved totally. And the 'why' became how can I help you people, you folks, how can I help you get something that you so deeply want? And that for me was the predominating factor, that was for me... that became my motive, that became... the most important part to me was how can I facilitate that?
And so than I came more often, and than I felt confident to sent others. I sent in Bir Krishna Swami and Krishna Kshetra Prabhu, they did a few programs there. Kirtiraja was going to the fairs, it became something and we got gradually... The first time I came, there were eight, including Ananta Shanti, the second time, I think, there were about forty-five people, I was stunned. The second time I came there was about 45 people. And there were initiations, people who were really, really desirous. And so than I realized this is a life's work, this is not something you do whimsically, this is something you dedicate yourself to.
So we started doing all this making connections with airplanes, stewardesses, and little microfilms were going back and forth and translations were going on, and printing was going on. I'm sure if Kamalamala spoke to you he would tell you all this exciting thing. And, you know, all of them what they did there it was just amazing. But than when Kirtiraja and I got captured - I'm sure he told you about that - yes, did he? (It gets confirmed) - so I was prevented from coming back.
So than it became very hard to balance this, you know? So it became more and more undercover because Andropov was really a negative person. Somebody who I thought would ruin everything. And than devotees were placed in prisons and so many difficult things happened.
Time 30:00
But what they did not consider, was the spirit of all you folks, that it made you stronger. And again I don't mean you who are young, I mean those who were there at that time. It made you stronger. I mean the trials and tribulations, Premavati losing her child, I mean you know there were things like that. That devotee who, you know, died in prison. It was just intolerable, I very was not able to tolerate this, it was just to sad, it was to... And I was trying to say, "Maybe shut things down a little bid, maybe do a little less, don't get yourself in so much trouble, don't get yourself so in danger." Yeah, but that didn't really worked.
So the 'why' for me at that point was, I became more like, "Oh my God, what have I done?" You know, "What have I done? I've placed these people in danger, I have made their lives miserable, I wanted to make their lives better but I made their lives miserable." So than, you know, we tried our best, I was supporting Kirtiraja's whole campaign to free the devotees. I don't know if you told you this, but I payed for the whole thing. (Hari smiles) I guess that means something and helped him arrange it.
And than it actually worked. I mean they got out, Soviet Union broke apart. But there was one thing the 'why' in those days - before we get to that spot - is that in the beginning I didn't want to have an ISKCON environment. I mean not because I was against ISKCON environment, after all I was managing it, but because I felt that bringing in an institution, institutionalizing the activities with some kind of structure like that would make it a greater danger, would make it a greater threat for everybody.
If it was individuals doing things here and there, if it was people of smaller groups, maybe something could work. But if it was an institution it would (have) been very much crushed. So I kept everything like in a family environment. In the 1980is, well up... the end of the 70is up to mid 1980is, it was entirely a family, a family of devotees. It was people doing things out of love, people doing things because they wanted to, it was their personal accepted missions, they were... they were no like organized groups or buildings or structures, it was all going on in a very familiar kind of a way. Everybody was very happy with that, everybody felt very comfortable with that.
But than later on because I had been sick because of this so many pressures on me in 1987, things falling apart and this whole thing with Soviet Union, I was in so much pressure, I just kind of couldn't take it anymore. So I was out of action for two years. And when I came back, in 1989 I think it was, it was different.
There were thousands of people, and thousands of people, Oh my God! Thousands of people. Then all of a sudden 'why' got confused, because I was very intimidated by thousands of people, I liked the familial one, I liked the family of Russia. The thousands of people in this huge thundering Kirtan being carried across customs - they didn't even stamped my passport, I didn't even get the customs certificate. I was entered into the country carried illegally over the passport, carried over the customs and deposited in the airport.
And than I said, "Wait a minute, what have you done? I gave my passport."
I say, "Go back and get stamps, go back and get the papers!" And than they went to the customs people and they (the customs people) said, "Stamp it yourself, you're doing everything else yourself, stamp it yourself!" (Hari laughs) Oh my God what chaos! I must admit I never really adjusted perfectly to this massive thing it had become, but I was happy for you all, very happy.
And then the "why" after that was, "well, I'll just participate in whatever way I can," it wasn't the same. I have to say, it wasn't the same but it still wasn't.. it wasn't bad, it was a new way of looking at this... that, yeah, kind of... it was very different for me. I don't know if I answered your question enough but... ?
Time 36:50
Kasisvara: So like when we were recording your interview, I remember you were sharing that there was a great call for saving the world. That's exactly what Srila Prabhupada actually transmitted to his empowered preacher disciples like yourself. And can you elaborate please on that, you know, what actually spiritually minded people are supposed to do to help the world, to save the world? Because that was the mood of those days and that's what we're trying actually to discuss at our festival and cultivate it.
So maybe you can share more about that experience you had, you know. Again, you know, I'm just trying to have a more clear picture about those early days of preaching and especially about (the) motivation which everyone had.
Hari: Well, I can't speak for everyone but, well, sure, the idea was to print. That Prabhupada would write the books, we would print and translate them in languages all over the world, and than distribute them because we felt that if this was going to be shared, the best vehicle to sharing it was Prabhupada's books and festivals or Kirtans, food distribution or cultural presentations. That's why he created FAIT, the art exhibition which was in Los Angeles and so we felt that was a good way to share what we felt was a superior methodology of spirituality that should have been all inclusive.
Now what is interesting about Prabhupada, is, that he had such a depth of experience and such a capacity to make people feel right at home in his presence. He had the capacity to make you feel like you're a wanted guest. He also had the capacity to make you feel completely uncomfortable because he would challenge everything you ever believed or everything you ever thought. And he knew how to balance the two.
But he was in his late seventieth or mid seventieth, he had that experience. We... when I joined the movement I was 22, I became a sanyasi when I was 27, I became a guru... I became a sanyasi at 27, I became a GBC-BBT trustee when I was 28, I became a guru when I was 29. Just think about that! Really young.
So my experience as a human being was, you know, I grew up at school as everybody else. I did athletics, I did some other junk here and there and than I became a devotee. And anything I knew particularly was because I served Prabhupada for many years as servant or secretary or BBT secretary or whatever, and I learned these principles that, yes, you have to save the world. Present, spread Krishna consciousness everywhere and save the world.
Now it's one thing to have that as your motivation, it's quite another to be prepared emotionally, psychologically, physically, culturally to do that. It's one thing to have to carry a flag... we used to do that, we marched up and down for civil rights, we marched up and down for freedoms, we did that. I came from a very revolutionary university. We were the first in America to turn over police cars and burn them and make riot and revolution, we were famous on front pages of newspapers in 1968, '67, '68.
It's quite another when you're going to go out and you have to change somebodies way of thinking, change somebodies way of seeing and to accept the divine influence, to surrender to the divine lotus feet of Radha and Krishna, Krishna who's blue. I mean this is a big ask, this is a very big request. And so when you're that young, figuring out how to do that with pure enthusiasm alone, is not exactly the best way to go about it.
And I was not alone in this, all of us were young, all of us had a similar problem. And rushing out into the great unknown, it was like "Fools rush in where angels fear to tread." So sure we did a lot and we created a lot and it was all because, "Let's get bigger and bigger and bigger." Because this was not requiring all of that cultivation of personal quality, that required more something like, you know, building up construction. You could be totally in the mode of passion and do this excellently, because the mode of passion allowed you to perfectly build, to perfectly construct, to do all these things. And mode of passion didn't consider, well, there's people involved and there's people who have needs, there's people who are burning out, there's people who are suffering while doing that.
Time 44:53
So that was our problem. Many times people say, you know, look what Prabhupada had to deal with, and that's correct. But it's not because we were uncultured, it's not because we were unintelligent. It's simply, it's very much based in lack of experience, lack of experience outside of ones own culture.
You know Americans are incredibly isolated, hardly anybody speaks more than one language. Mostly everyone here speaks English or Spanish and a few both. In Europe everybody speaks multiple languages. So the culture there is very mixed, you get very used to different people, you get very used to different food, different music, different ways of being. But in America, even South America that's a big junk. Both are two big junks, maybe different languages but the same kind of situation. Pretty much a homogeneous kind of a culture, not much experience dealing outside of that.
So saving the world, the world is much bigger than America or wherever you are, the world is a big place. And people in the world think in all kinds of different ways. So to have the capacity to adapt to multiple cultures, to multiple ways of seeing things, is very difficult. It's extremely difficult to learn that on the spot.
So to go into something and just use your own culture's methodology to define the future of people who are not familiar with it, or not interested in it, is a formula for disaster. And I think that this is the predominating principle that caused whatever took place in those young, unexperienced people, to have to completely change and adjust and to do things differently. I chose to do things in a whole other way, other people are doing it in other ways.
But I think what you see happening is that the idea to save the world has transformed into the idea of save yourself and adapt to the world and influence the world in a positive way. And this, if you look back on... if I look back, on the way Prabhupada was speaking with me, and the way I saw him deal with people, is very much the way he thought too.
I felt that he wanted to sent his emissaries to the countries they were from, because they knew best how to do what was needed to be done in that place, because they knew the cultures, they knew what way to do things. But I'm not sure I addressed your question? So ask again. You know, if I get off on these tangents please stop me, I baffle a lot.
Time 49:12
Kasisvara: No, I think you're speaking about important things. I'm just trying to, you know, you have been in the preaching, in the... you know, helping so many people in their spiritual developments and I'm just trying to see how you actually... how you actually perceive the dynamics.
Let's say we're here because each and everyone is focused on spiritual life, you know, we would like to develop our Krishna consciousness, at the same time we are all united in some spiritual institution. And obviously, you know, there are some challenges, there are things, different things, but since you have experience of, you know, growing in your own spiritual path as well as helping many, many people around you, I'm just wandering if you can share what would you think would be important for devotees to know, who try to actually live in this society, you know, united and at the same time trying to kind of being organized in some institution?
As you said there were lots of challenges as soon it becomes organized and sometimes you loose, you know, focus or you loose actually (the) understanding of the individual, you know, like (the) importance of the individual devotee.
Hari: You just explained. I think if you... I can talk about what I've realized and share that with you, if you like. In my personal realization, I've come to understand that my primary duty, my primary responsibility is kindness. That first and foremost if I'm anything other, or perceived as anything other, than somebody who is kind, who cares about you, who wants the best for you, than I feel I'm not fulfilling my spiritual role. I feel my spiritual role is to be who I am, because I cannot be anything else.
And when I say, "who I am" I don't mean something generic, like spirit soul because that doesn't say anything to me, I don't mean I'm a servant, that doesn't speak to me - I wish to be of service because I wish to offer whatever it is that I can offer for the benefit of others as an act of kindness and love. So to do that I have to be very confident in myself.
If you remember various things in the Shastra - Mahabharata is filled with it - it's all kinds of ways in which one can find ones own personal integrity. It's a code of ethics, a code of morality, that you will know what should be done and what should not be done. Not because someone else told you or you memorized it - because there will be thousands of situations that do not fit that exact mold or teaching - but to be able to feel within oneself that right now, in this situation that I am in, this is the best way I can be of service, this is the way I can show loving kindness to this other person, this is the way I can embody the Divine.
This is what we expect from God, kindness to us, we expect support, we expect love. When we go before their Lordships, the deities in the temple, we basically throw ourselves at Them asking Them for these things, because we know They have it in abundance. So if we wish to demonstrate to others how wonderful this science of divinity is, than we ourselves should embrace that love, embrace that kindness, embrace that support, and be there sharing that loving energy with others.
You can preach and say, "It says in the Shastra, you must do this, you cannot to that," you can do that. But it is not as effective as that love, and kindness which you share as a person. For me, when I saw in the beginning what Prabhupada did - in the very beginning - is, he shared himself as a loving, kind, concerned and caring, spiritual father, that attracted everybody.
On the other hand when he would give this very... to us than it would impress us, but that was not a great way to preach to others. Because when Prabhupada was in front of others, he adapted his speaking to accommodate them. So it is not 'cut and dry' that you must consider all of us, I must consider, we must consider, who we are speaking to, and their particular personality, their particular needs.
And what is a better place to start, than at home?! With your family or in the temple, to make the primary consideration kindness, that people should want to do what they are doing out of their own decision and energy. Not because it's the way they're going to get liberation, or not because that's what they have to do, or not because they want to impress somebody, but because they feel it deeply in their hearts, in their minds, in their souls.
That they are sharing, that they have felt this energy of the love of God shared to them by a kind and loving person who cares about them.
Time 57:45
And if an organization - because after all an organization it basically boils down to, you got a building, people live in it or not, you cook, you take care of things, you clean, you have some kind of like business whether it be selling books, I know, transcendental, it doesn't matter, business is going on. There is to a certain extend a corporate management. And even if you try to cover that with words like, "It's a spiritual corporate management, it's a spiritual organization", unless those who are doing it have that embracing of that kindness principle first and foremost, corporations tend to work towards their own self-preservation first and foremost, corporations tend to work towards building up, increasing. And that tends to work against the interests of individuals who are not fulfilling their role or playing their part or who are a troublesome personality.
But companies get away with that because they're paying people. You pay somebody, you have a certain leeway to. Look, "I'm paying you, it's a work, it's a work, it's a deal, it's an agreement." But in a spiritual organization it's not the same. There has to be that feeling from within and that feeling is fueled with the kindness of leadership, the kindness of support, the kindness of caring. If somebody's sick to actually care, if somebody's troubled to actually care and come up with solutions, and if you're doing to much, to cut it down.
Because ultimately your religious society is only as good as the people in it. You can have the greatest philosophy in the universe, you can have the greatest, elitist, most perfect, most wonderful, most fantastic. But if the people in that organization are not feeling that within deeply, that support, that care, that love, what have you got? Some words, some exterior facade.
So my realization has been that people are number one always, in every circumstance. So I have made the personal choice to make my decisions based on that principle, and to take responsibility for my choices. I take the responsibility and I take the consequences because they're my responsibilities. So when I... when somebody asks me, "Oh, I have this trouble and that thing and that thing," I specifically stick to help that person understand how to make their lives better.
And it's not my responsibility to solve this bigger problems, unless you ask me as a consultant sociologically speaking, or psychic, psychologically speaking or from political science point of view, the economics of it point of view. You can creat structure that works and you can creat a family of people that feel good, but doing the both is the greatest challenge that anyone can face, especially spiritualists. It is very difficult and it requires a whole new group of people who manage and lead on the principle of kindness.
Time 1:02:52
Kasisvara: Thank you so much Hari. We have His Holliness Bhakti Rasayance Sagara Maharaja siting next to me, and he would like to ask you something.
Hari: Sure.
Bhakti Rasayance Sagara Swami: Thank you for your sharing. We would like to understand better your explanations. If you could please illustrate them with the stories connected to your early years of preaching in the former Soviet Union and what are the lessons you can draw from those stories? And how are you doing things differently now, how your understanding and consciousness or what kind of conclusions you came to on the basis of those relations. Because when you illustrate something with stories we can understand much better.
Hari: Yes, you're right. I'd like to give the story of how we got captured in Riga, because I think it will display on multiple levels my concerns. Up till that point I was doing very much the family thing, I really liked it being very personal and everything was... And than in Riga there was this... they made it into something like a Guru Puja. And I when I left my hotel, I had already seen in the airport, the Intourist people were suspicious, in my hotel I noticed there were a lot of KGB guys around, and when I went to the program one of the KGB guys whispered just as I was walking past him, "Jaya Vishnupada."
Okay, I knew we were sunk, I knew that this is the end and maybe I'm in Siberia, I've no question of it. Anyway, so on my way to the Gulag (?), we went out to the front door of the hotel and there's Rama Bhakta Das with his car. He was a driver and it had sheets on the seats, white sheets - a car. No-one in history had ever put white sheets on a car and there were... it was so (inaudible). So I said, "Do not bring this car, drive it away!" and "I'm going to walk to this program."
So what happens, there's like four or five, six, following me as I'm walking. And the car is going like two miles an hour following me, the car with the white sheets. (Many are laughing) "Gulag here we come." (laughing) And than... so we finally, after 15 minutes of this, get to the flat. And so we entered the courtyard, the window is open and there's a raging Kirtan going on and we hear it all through the courtyard. And I go upstairs and I get changed, and they sit me down on some kind of a Vyasasana and they start to wash my feet. And I say, "Are you crazy, do you want us to all get us drown in prison? What is wrong with you, don't you ever watch TV? Don't you know anything what's going on?"
And Ananta Stanti tells me, "We have a constitution, we have freedom of religion, they cannot stop us from doing this." I said, "What planet are you from? Do you have any idea what you're doing? Stop it!" He said, "We want to do this." So I mean as far as an example of what not to do, as far as an example of how to misread the situation, you could not get a better one.
And than, okay, we leave that place - I don't know why they didn't arrest us than, I found out later why - and we go to this program in some hall. And it is packed, packed with people. And I know there's no hope. I look in the back of the room and there were two undercover - you knew they were KGB, that's all there was to it, I mean I watched enough TV, I knew what was going on - and they were looking out the window to down bellow, and than the girl goes like this (Hari shows with his hand) and a couple of minutes later I'm having a Kirtan playing on the film cans, I'm playing mrdanga on the film cans - they were empty thank God! Playing mrdanga on the film cans and than they bust down the door, and than they come in, and everything... Kirtiraja probably told you.
Anyway, organization can work for you, organization can work against you. And again when organization works for you, it's great. I mean a Ratha Yatra, I love for example when, you know, they have Ratha Yatra in New York City. I'd only been to it I think twice, I loved it, it was wonderful. You know the whole city closed down on Fifth Avenue and Lord Jaganatha swollen down. I remember in Jaganatha Puri - not Jaganatha Puri - in Calcutta, during Ratha Yatra, I threw so many bananas out of the cart I couldn't move my arm for three days. That kind of organization, sure, that is wonderful.
But when organization is to a certain extend mindless, when it's just moving ahead to accomplish a purpose without considering all of the people involved as individuals, not just an amorphous group, you can get yourself in big trouble. So that was one example. I don't feel like giving another. So I hoped that helped, at least it was fun.
Kashishvara: Yes please, if you can tell more we would be excited of course, yeah.
Time 1:11:45
Hari: I don't know if you remember that concert in the Olympicsky Stadium
Kasisvara: Oh yes, Gauranga Bhajan Band.
Hari: We had hired 200 policemen to manage the crowd. There were so many people in that stadium, the police chief came and said, "We quit, we're not going to place our lives in danger because of this crowd. The capacity of the stadium, I think, was 31 thousand and we had like 34. And there supposed to be chairs, that all went away, it was all crazy standing, crazy people crowd. And so the police chief told me, "If there's anybody hurt, injured or killed, it's your responsibility." Me, biting nails. (Many are laughing)
So I'm up there trying to control this crowd. And it was coming like waves, thousands of people making waves pushing back and forth. And than somebody is lifted up in the front and carried away because they had fainted, and than another one lifted up carried away and fainted. "Oh, my God!"
So I go to Boy George and I say, "Listen, you cannot make a big deal running out there, you got to just go out quietly, I'll hide you, you'll sneak out there and we'll just try to somehow get this going." And he goes out, takes his head of and screaming, yahoo, yahoo! Running up on the stage and now everything goes bananas. (Laughing)
And there's another funny story that, you know, we had this smoke, we're going to do the smoke effect on the stage when people came out, we are going to have all this liquid oxygen, I mean this dry ice oxygen thing with the smoke coming out. And Brahmananda Puri - we spend a lot of money on that - Brahmananda thought something was wrong, something was on fire. So he went down there with a fire extinguisher and stomped down all of the dry ice things and completely nullified thousands of Dollars worth of... (arrangement) He thought it was on fire.
So the effect when I thought, where is the smoke? Where is the smoke, we needed it? - No smoke. (Laughing in the audience) So I mean large crowds are tough. Oh boy! But how it's effecting me today? I don't like crowds, I have post traumatic stress syndrome, (Laughing) I am crowded out, totally crowded out, no more crowds, no thank you. That's it with crowds. I like small. It's too intimidating.
Kasisvara: There is a question. If you could tell examples of organization working for your benefits.
Hari: Well, if you look at any... Well, I don't have enough experience there in Russia but I can tell you in America, in Sweden, I can tell you about Sweden, America, Germany, anyone of these places with an advanced social... it's called a social umbrella, that older people are cared for. If they have nobody to care for them, there's a place for them to be. We, we get social security also, which is we get money every month from the government, which we have paid into throughout or we have Medicare, which is insurance, which is that basically everything is payed for.
So it's called a social umbrella. In Sweden if you are not able to work, you're not able to make enough money, they give you that money every month. If you're pregnant, they will give you child support for two years. You get long term leave and you can't be fired. So these social programs created by governments or corporations, a lot of corporations have this too, to protect their workers.
That in that way they act in a manner where everybody is cared for ultimately. Okay, maybe not perfectly, but they're not going to die of neglect. And when I was in my last year of ISKCON, I was creating in Norway a foundation to give global health care to all devotees and to creat a pension for all devotees.
This was part of what we were going to use that enormous money that came from PameInvest, not PameInvest, from Gasprom, to make a global network of retirement fund, I did also gave Prithu the money to creat his hospice in Vrndavana, to make retirement funds, to make health insurance, global health insurance for those who did not have it and to make funds for scholarships, for education, so that teachers could be trained properly, caretakers could be trained properly. Included in this would be first aid instructions, nursing care - you know basic stuff, how to take care of people.
So I took the example of these governments, or these corporations, who were doing it, and was trying to creat that, but I didn't last long enough to do that. So in that way that kind of a methodology of caring I embraced and still do, that there must be a way to protect the people, to protect the people who work within that organization selflessly - not just feed them. And not only that but feed them, my goodness! you know, feeding them, you sometimes feed them the wrong stuff. You'll got to eat healthy.
I mean sure, Krishna likes Gulabjamuns and Rasagulas and sweet rice and all these stuff, but is that good for me? I mean what's the best for me as a person? That my diet it should be very much tailored to me, I mean even in Ayurveda, Ayurveda does not say one diet for everybody. The Kapha or the Vatha or the Pita or whatever mixtures there are, all have things which are good for them and things which are terrible for them.
So when you see individuals and you see their constitution, you see their needs, and your organization caters to that, (something) which is possible to do. I mean, different Ayurvedic groups... I mean, you probably don't know her, but Daksyakanya Devi Dasi from Argentina has become Deepak Chopra's cook at his festivals. She's right now cooking at a festival in southwestern Florida at an Ayurvedic Clinic for one of Elon Musk's best friends. And she's cooking according to the needs and requirements of the people there, that's why they want her. Because she sees them as individuals and accommodates them.
So not that everybody should eat the same thing, not that everybody should act the same way. That's why you have Brahmanas, Kshatriyas, Vaishys, Shudras. If you take somebody who's of a certain mentality and you stick them into an activity that's they're not comfortable in, it ruins them, it creates stress. And we should not think, "Well, we're transcendental, we're beyond that, we have no bodily needs or concerns." That's impersonalism. We're people, we're human beings, we have to live by the rules of our human existence.
The Varnashrama system was not created for the materialists, it was for everybody. Arjuna was a Kshatriya, not a materialist. We have to live within the reality of who we are. So our diet, our sleeping habits, our whether we can take cold or not, or whether or not we can do this work or not, or how we feel supported. What if we have a breakdown? What if we're pushed too far by circumstances or experiences that we could never have predicted? Are we to be left on our own or are we to be supported? And an enlightened society sees every individual and gives that support.
Time 1:23:15
It's what a family is all about. A family should prosper, the family should be supported, everyone should grow up to be the best they can possibly be. And such an organization and such a society will be very attractive, very attractive. Why does everybody talk about Maharaja Yudhishtira? Because that's his society, everybody's cared for. So much so, everyone was so happy, (even) the weather was good.
Now we're so screwing up the weather with our mentality of dystopian future, this catastrophe of the future. This anger and violence we show towards each other, the anger and violence we show towards these poor animals or other creatures, the anger and violence we show towards each other, it's just destroying the weather. Because nobody feels safe and secure, nobody feels comfortable. And that's in Maharaja Yudhishtira's society completely different. Everybody felt comfortable and secure, and the weather reflected that good energy emanating from all the people.
Because nature is responsive. You can effect a plant by thinking negatively to it, you can effect a plant positively by thinking love to it or bringing love to it, or feeling love for it. You can effect nature just as nature effects you, it's a symbiotic relationship. This divine nature we all live within, this creation of the divine beings and all the Devas who support under the control of Radha and Krishna, this divine nature and us, are intimately connected. And to feel that and to feel that support for all living entities within, is what makes everything a paradise. It's what makes a difference between Satya Yuga and Kali Yuga. The mentality of the people in it, the mentality of those who have the power to determine directions or determine the what is wanted.
And it all boils down to that principle of kindness, to be kind. I know there are caveats to that. Like if your child is going to do something incredibly stupid, you have to stop them naturally. But that is an act of kindness to protect them. And you don't keep that as your predominating principle, it's a momentary thing. If you say, I've got to be strict and strong because they needed (that) all the time, that's a mistake, that's not kindness, that's a miscalculation. Momentary correction or having to do the right thing, even if it's tuff and it requires courage, sure. But that's not the long term principle, that's a momentary principle.
Kasisvara: Thank you very much, it was really wonderful. Thank you very much for your association, for your time. It was really a great pleasure to see you again. It was like in good, early days, thank you, Hare Krishna!
Hari: Haribol! Bye.
On the occasion of the 50th anniversary of Prabhupada's visit to the Soviet Union
Time 4:22
Hi everybody, hello to you all, Haribol, Hare Krishna and all that! It is good for me if I see video. So that's everybody in Orlando? ("Yes" comes the answer) Hi, all you! (Hari sees the audience on his computer screen)
Time 6:03
Kasisvara: Thank you so much for your time, Hari. We have around 100 devotees here gathered for our Russian festival dedicated to the 50th anniversary of Srila Prabhupada's visit to Moscow. And mainly we are all discussing the early years of preaching in former USSR. So we have already listened to Shyamasundara, Kirtiraja and Haripuja Prabhus yesterday and before yesterday. And, of course, everyone mentiones you because you played, you know, a significant role in the preaching of Krishna consciousness in Soviet Union.
So everyone is excited to here your story. But as we discussed before, you expressed your interest to actually explain 'why' you have being doing all this selfless and fearless preaching activities. So you can just share your stories.
Time 7:15
Hari: Well I only... you asked me to do that, so therefore I said I could, so I expressed interest. Okay I get it. Why? Actually that's a great question. And I think the question of 'why' we do what we do and 'why' we feel like we feel - the underlying motivation - this is all extremely important, and thank you for actually asking that question because it's a great question, and therefore I was interested in that.
I think often when we speak about history, it becomes a relating of events chronologically or according to a subject matter. And sometimes the relating of events takes predominance over the underlying reasons why one does what one does. For me, I think, the 'why' began in Sanand, in Gujarat. It's a kingdom in India. It's a small kingdom but there still was a king. He had a throne, he had a palace, he had his people of the kingdom.
And I went there with Srila Prabhupada, I think this was 1975. And the king received him very nicely and there were many programs there. And he was letting Prabhupada stay in his office. It was an office like any other office but it was filled with books. So Prabhupada being curious happened to take one book out of the shelves, which was a book by Lenin. I think it was called "Dialectic Materialism," where he was speaking about the dialectic method.
And Prabhupada became interested in that. So we started discussing this. And it was at that time that I told him that in college weirdly enough I was considered to be the top student in the Marxist philosophy. Not because I wanted to be a Marxist or Communist, no not at all, but because I found it fascinating. I found the philosophy fascinating, I found the philosophy of "Giving what you can and taking what you need" (fascinating) because it was very much according to our late 1960-is somewhat commune style life style activity, that we were very much into.
So I thought this was an interesting philosophy. But what I thought was even more interesting, was, how that incredibly idealistic philosophy which was categorized as utopian translated into the Soviet system, which was extremely socialistic, which was extremely controlled.
And so I thought it was very interesting to talk about the steps from Marx to Lenin and than on to Trotsky and etc., to Stalin. And well you know the history better than me. So I felt that this was a fascinating subject to discuss, and Prabhupada actually liked to talk about it. So we were talking about it for some time, I don't remember exactly how long, it went on for some days. It became a theme while he was getting a massage or, you know, when I would bring him food for lunch or something - it became a theme.
And than he asked me at the end of it to write a book called "Dialectic Spiritualism", where the same dialectic would be translated into spiritual understanding of thesis, antithesis and synthesis, how you would end up in a spiritual conclusion. So I liked that very much. But I did not take that as a life changing event at that time. A little later, maybe I guess six, eight month later I ended up... he sent me back to... I was supposed to go back to Amerika - funny side story but that doesn't matter - I supposed to take over the Radha Damodara Party. But Tamal Krishna Maharaja told me I was supposed to take one bus, so I was not really interested - they kind of cheated me on that.
So I ended up in London and than Hansadutta, whom I have known before - we were friendly - told me to, "Why don't you go to Eastern Europe and do some program?" And so I started doing programs. And then I wrote that to Prabhupada, and he told me to stay and continue doing things in Eastern Europe.
And than I realized that isn't this interesting? We had this discussion about the book by Lenin and than here I am all of a sudden doing that in a very unexpected way. So in actuality I fell into it. It wasn't like I had this goal in mind when leaving India after taking Sannyasa that I'm going to preach in Eastern Europe, or Russia, Soviet Union or whatever. I did not had that idea in mind, I had a whole different idea in mind. And suddenly I was there doing that. So I felt it was Krishna's arrangement. And considering that, I took it very seriously.
Started off going to Hungary for programs, than went to Poland, for Yugoslavia, Czechoslovakia, Bulgaria, Romania. So at that time I've gone all around, and than I was also helping Kirtiraja to arrange with Ramesvara the book fairs. And we were keeping in contact and everything. I had known Kirtiraja since 1971 in Brooklyn. So than I felt, "Well I can't sent anybody into a situation that I have not myself experienced."
15:30
Like all through Eastern Europe I sent people into places where I have gone first. Not because I had this idea of being a pioneer but because I was worried, I did not want the responsibility of something happening to these people to be on my head. I followed the same idea in the Arabic countries. All the Arabic speaking countries I went there first and than I would arrange for others to go there, because I was not very confident that such a thing could be done. I mean after all, you know, for a Westerner to go preaching a religion in those days into the Soviet Union was dangerous, to say the least. You had no idea where you could end up, you had no idea what might happen to you. You did not know about any guaranty from your own government, who really couldn't care less about Hare Krishnas at that time.
So I decided, well considering that was my philosophy, I had to go first to the Soviet Union, to go inside not as a... not with an education visa or with an invitation from a professor, but to go in as a tourist, to go in to see who I could meet outside of a controlled environment, to see what I could do. So I went with Sucandra, who later became Bhaktibushana Swami, and we went there just to see, just to do a physability study. Is it posible for us to hide who we were, to go in disguise and to meet people, or to see what we could do? Because there were no... there was no program to went into.
When I first went to Hungary, there was a yoga club, and I had an official invitation to that yoga club. So it gave me an excuse to go there, it gave me an excuse to even have public Kirtan in the yoga club. It was allowed because it was invited, it was a cultural event. But this was different, this was more clandestine, which made it far more complex.
Time 18:18
So when I first came, we first landed in Saint Petersburg. And we went places, we went to the university there. And I met a couple of people - first of all even to find somebody who spoke English you had to use excuses like, "Can you tell me where the library is?" or any excuse we used, "Where we can get something to eat?" to try to meet people there in Saint Petersburg (former Leningrad).
And I met like one or two people. Yeah, they were not like very helpful, it was not like it was something that I thought, "yeah, this going to work." (Hari laughs) So I was not very encouraged.
Then we came to Moscow and I managed somehow to get through to Ananta Shanti - who Shyamasundara probably told you all about - and we met in one of those, you know, in Moscow those big Stalin buildings - I don't forgot how many he build all around Moscow. And we were staying in one of them. Oh no, that was another time, sorry. There were a few times in the beginning. No we stayed in that hotel only foreigners were allowed and we walked to that place and we met him outside there.
And we walked to where this group was, there were about eight of them altogether. Some of whom had been in the Institute that Ananta Shanti was working with, or had been to, and he had speaking to them. So when I met this very small group of people and when I went to talk to the head of that Institute - I think it was the Psychic Institute or Metaphysical Institut, I don't remember, Para-Psychological Institute. It was in the bottom actually of, I think it was the KGB building or I wasn't even sure, it was in the basement of this office there.
He wanted to know about Shambala, he wanted to know about all the mystical Indian things. And I was very uncomfortable explaining so I was just telling him what I could and explaining what I could. And than we went back to that group and I was talking with them - Ananta Stanti's group - and I realized these people are really nice, these people they are really inquisitive, they really want to know.
And I was, "Oh, my goodness!" this is cool. No longer is it like, you know, I'm meeting somebody on the street and it's called cold contact, you just come up with somebody cold and you try to work out some relationship. Very difficult to do that. But in this case it was people who Ananta Shanti had spoken to.
Okay, he was a little unusual, a little, a little peculiar as a person, (Hari smiles) and at the same time he didn't really know very much. I'm not trying to diminish his importance, believe me, not at all. But in 1977, '78, in January of '78 when this first took place, he didn't really know very much. And he was getting people involved in the mystical aspect of Indian culture. And so what was fascinating was that these people were primed and ready for the philosophy, the actual philosophy which we, all of us, embraced and appreciated.
And than I understood, my God! this could be huge. It's not that they just like - because previously I only met with that - you know, the scientific minded people or the very... people who saw what they could get out of it mystically. But these people were actually embracing philosophy, they were actually embracing the principles of spirituality, which were so universally acceptable and were so applicable to their situation now in the Soviet Union, where it was based on extremely pure materialism.
And then I was starting to uncover and understand more how significant the church had been in Russia. Something which, you know, we in the West did not know. You know we were as under the control of propaganda about Soviet Union, as you... well, a lot of you were young, you don't even know what I'm talking about. So that's something else. But for those of you who are in your, I don't know, 60is and 70is, you know it really well. 50is you may know something like when you were a kid, but you had your propaganda, we had our propaganda. And so I was trained to believe, you know, you people were atheists, all atheists, you were all atheists and you didn't have any concern whatsoever.
So I went there thinking, you know, this is going to be a big job, it's a big job to convince you atheistic, you know, demoniac society about God. But when I got there and I was talking to this small group, I realized Russians are I incredibly theistic, they're incredibly interested in spiritual things, they love esoteric spirituality, they love these concepts. And than I was like, "Oh my God! I thought this is going to be a coal mine, it turned out to be a gold mine."
So "why" changed entirely? Originally it was the... Well, you know, sometimes we get the savior complex, we think we're going to go to a place and save people, we're going to, you know, we're going to come descending in on our white horses, the night and shining armor and we're going to save people. So, in my own bewildered manner I thought like that. You know, it's going to be tuff but, you know, well, maybe save one person or two people, who knows?
Instead it turned out to be this fascinating group of people, who... The 'why' changed entirely, for me the savior complex dissolved totally. And the 'why' became how can I help you people, you folks, how can I help you get something that you so deeply want? And that for me was the predominating factor, that was for me... that became my motive, that became... the most important part to me was how can I facilitate that?
And so than I came more often, and than I felt confident to sent others. I sent in Bir Krishna Swami and Krishna Kshetra Prabhu, they did a few programs there. Kirtiraja was going to the fairs, it became something and we got gradually... The first time I came, there were eight, including Ananta Shanti, the second time, I think, there were about forty-five people, I was stunned. The second time I came there was about 45 people. And there were initiations, people who were really, really desirous. And so than I realized this is a life's work, this is not something you do whimsically, this is something you dedicate yourself to.
So we started doing all this making connections with airplanes, stewardesses, and little microfilms were going back and forth and translations were going on, and printing was going on. I'm sure if Kamalamala spoke to you he would tell you all this exciting thing. And, you know, all of them what they did there it was just amazing. But than when Kirtiraja and I got captured - I'm sure he told you about that - yes, did he? (It gets confirmed) - so I was prevented from coming back.
So than it became very hard to balance this, you know? So it became more and more undercover because Andropov was really a negative person. Somebody who I thought would ruin everything. And than devotees were placed in prisons and so many difficult things happened.
Time 30:00
But what they did not consider, was the spirit of all you folks, that it made you stronger. And again I don't mean you who are young, I mean those who were there at that time. It made you stronger. I mean the trials and tribulations, Premavati losing her child, I mean you know there were things like that. That devotee who, you know, died in prison. It was just intolerable, I very was not able to tolerate this, it was just to sad, it was to... And I was trying to say, "Maybe shut things down a little bid, maybe do a little less, don't get yourself in so much trouble, don't get yourself so in danger." Yeah, but that didn't really worked.
So the 'why' for me at that point was, I became more like, "Oh my God, what have I done?" You know, "What have I done? I've placed these people in danger, I have made their lives miserable, I wanted to make their lives better but I made their lives miserable." So than, you know, we tried our best, I was supporting Kirtiraja's whole campaign to free the devotees. I don't know if you told you this, but I payed for the whole thing. (Hari smiles) I guess that means something and helped him arrange it.
And than it actually worked. I mean they got out, Soviet Union broke apart. But there was one thing the 'why' in those days - before we get to that spot - is that in the beginning I didn't want to have an ISKCON environment. I mean not because I was against ISKCON environment, after all I was managing it, but because I felt that bringing in an institution, institutionalizing the activities with some kind of structure like that would make it a greater danger, would make it a greater threat for everybody.
If it was individuals doing things here and there, if it was people of smaller groups, maybe something could work. But if it was an institution it would (have) been very much crushed. So I kept everything like in a family environment. In the 1980is, well up... the end of the 70is up to mid 1980is, it was entirely a family, a family of devotees. It was people doing things out of love, people doing things because they wanted to, it was their personal accepted missions, they were... they were no like organized groups or buildings or structures, it was all going on in a very familiar kind of a way. Everybody was very happy with that, everybody felt very comfortable with that.
But than later on because I had been sick because of this so many pressures on me in 1987, things falling apart and this whole thing with Soviet Union, I was in so much pressure, I just kind of couldn't take it anymore. So I was out of action for two years. And when I came back, in 1989 I think it was, it was different.
There were thousands of people, and thousands of people, Oh my God! Thousands of people. Then all of a sudden 'why' got confused, because I was very intimidated by thousands of people, I liked the familial one, I liked the family of Russia. The thousands of people in this huge thundering Kirtan being carried across customs - they didn't even stamped my passport, I didn't even get the customs certificate. I was entered into the country carried illegally over the passport, carried over the customs and deposited in the airport.
And than I said, "Wait a minute, what have you done? I gave my passport."
I say, "Go back and get stamps, go back and get the papers!" And than they went to the customs people and they (the customs people) said, "Stamp it yourself, you're doing everything else yourself, stamp it yourself!" (Hari laughs) Oh my God what chaos! I must admit I never really adjusted perfectly to this massive thing it had become, but I was happy for you all, very happy.
And then the "why" after that was, "well, I'll just participate in whatever way I can," it wasn't the same. I have to say, it wasn't the same but it still wasn't.. it wasn't bad, it was a new way of looking at this... that, yeah, kind of... it was very different for me. I don't know if I answered your question enough but... ?
Time 36:50
Kasisvara: So like when we were recording your interview, I remember you were sharing that there was a great call for saving the world. That's exactly what Srila Prabhupada actually transmitted to his empowered preacher disciples like yourself. And can you elaborate please on that, you know, what actually spiritually minded people are supposed to do to help the world, to save the world? Because that was the mood of those days and that's what we're trying actually to discuss at our festival and cultivate it.
So maybe you can share more about that experience you had, you know. Again, you know, I'm just trying to have a more clear picture about those early days of preaching and especially about (the) motivation which everyone had.
Hari: Well, I can't speak for everyone but, well, sure, the idea was to print. That Prabhupada would write the books, we would print and translate them in languages all over the world, and than distribute them because we felt that if this was going to be shared, the best vehicle to sharing it was Prabhupada's books and festivals or Kirtans, food distribution or cultural presentations. That's why he created FAIT, the art exhibition which was in Los Angeles and so we felt that was a good way to share what we felt was a superior methodology of spirituality that should have been all inclusive.
Now what is interesting about Prabhupada, is, that he had such a depth of experience and such a capacity to make people feel right at home in his presence. He had the capacity to make you feel like you're a wanted guest. He also had the capacity to make you feel completely uncomfortable because he would challenge everything you ever believed or everything you ever thought. And he knew how to balance the two.
But he was in his late seventieth or mid seventieth, he had that experience. We... when I joined the movement I was 22, I became a sanyasi when I was 27, I became a guru... I became a sanyasi at 27, I became a GBC-BBT trustee when I was 28, I became a guru when I was 29. Just think about that! Really young.
So my experience as a human being was, you know, I grew up at school as everybody else. I did athletics, I did some other junk here and there and than I became a devotee. And anything I knew particularly was because I served Prabhupada for many years as servant or secretary or BBT secretary or whatever, and I learned these principles that, yes, you have to save the world. Present, spread Krishna consciousness everywhere and save the world.
Now it's one thing to have that as your motivation, it's quite another to be prepared emotionally, psychologically, physically, culturally to do that. It's one thing to have to carry a flag... we used to do that, we marched up and down for civil rights, we marched up and down for freedoms, we did that. I came from a very revolutionary university. We were the first in America to turn over police cars and burn them and make riot and revolution, we were famous on front pages of newspapers in 1968, '67, '68.
It's quite another when you're going to go out and you have to change somebodies way of thinking, change somebodies way of seeing and to accept the divine influence, to surrender to the divine lotus feet of Radha and Krishna, Krishna who's blue. I mean this is a big ask, this is a very big request. And so when you're that young, figuring out how to do that with pure enthusiasm alone, is not exactly the best way to go about it.
And I was not alone in this, all of us were young, all of us had a similar problem. And rushing out into the great unknown, it was like "Fools rush in where angels fear to tread." So sure we did a lot and we created a lot and it was all because, "Let's get bigger and bigger and bigger." Because this was not requiring all of that cultivation of personal quality, that required more something like, you know, building up construction. You could be totally in the mode of passion and do this excellently, because the mode of passion allowed you to perfectly build, to perfectly construct, to do all these things. And mode of passion didn't consider, well, there's people involved and there's people who have needs, there's people who are burning out, there's people who are suffering while doing that.
Time 44:53
So that was our problem. Many times people say, you know, look what Prabhupada had to deal with, and that's correct. But it's not because we were uncultured, it's not because we were unintelligent. It's simply, it's very much based in lack of experience, lack of experience outside of ones own culture.
You know Americans are incredibly isolated, hardly anybody speaks more than one language. Mostly everyone here speaks English or Spanish and a few both. In Europe everybody speaks multiple languages. So the culture there is very mixed, you get very used to different people, you get very used to different food, different music, different ways of being. But in America, even South America that's a big junk. Both are two big junks, maybe different languages but the same kind of situation. Pretty much a homogeneous kind of a culture, not much experience dealing outside of that.
So saving the world, the world is much bigger than America or wherever you are, the world is a big place. And people in the world think in all kinds of different ways. So to have the capacity to adapt to multiple cultures, to multiple ways of seeing things, is very difficult. It's extremely difficult to learn that on the spot.
So to go into something and just use your own culture's methodology to define the future of people who are not familiar with it, or not interested in it, is a formula for disaster. And I think that this is the predominating principle that caused whatever took place in those young, unexperienced people, to have to completely change and adjust and to do things differently. I chose to do things in a whole other way, other people are doing it in other ways.
But I think what you see happening is that the idea to save the world has transformed into the idea of save yourself and adapt to the world and influence the world in a positive way. And this, if you look back on... if I look back, on the way Prabhupada was speaking with me, and the way I saw him deal with people, is very much the way he thought too.
I felt that he wanted to sent his emissaries to the countries they were from, because they knew best how to do what was needed to be done in that place, because they knew the cultures, they knew what way to do things. But I'm not sure I addressed your question? So ask again. You know, if I get off on these tangents please stop me, I baffle a lot.
Time 49:12
Kasisvara: No, I think you're speaking about important things. I'm just trying to, you know, you have been in the preaching, in the... you know, helping so many people in their spiritual developments and I'm just trying to see how you actually... how you actually perceive the dynamics.
Let's say we're here because each and everyone is focused on spiritual life, you know, we would like to develop our Krishna consciousness, at the same time we are all united in some spiritual institution. And obviously, you know, there are some challenges, there are things, different things, but since you have experience of, you know, growing in your own spiritual path as well as helping many, many people around you, I'm just wandering if you can share what would you think would be important for devotees to know, who try to actually live in this society, you know, united and at the same time trying to kind of being organized in some institution?
As you said there were lots of challenges as soon it becomes organized and sometimes you loose, you know, focus or you loose actually (the) understanding of the individual, you know, like (the) importance of the individual devotee.
Hari: You just explained. I think if you... I can talk about what I've realized and share that with you, if you like. In my personal realization, I've come to understand that my primary duty, my primary responsibility is kindness. That first and foremost if I'm anything other, or perceived as anything other, than somebody who is kind, who cares about you, who wants the best for you, than I feel I'm not fulfilling my spiritual role. I feel my spiritual role is to be who I am, because I cannot be anything else.
And when I say, "who I am" I don't mean something generic, like spirit soul because that doesn't say anything to me, I don't mean I'm a servant, that doesn't speak to me - I wish to be of service because I wish to offer whatever it is that I can offer for the benefit of others as an act of kindness and love. So to do that I have to be very confident in myself.
If you remember various things in the Shastra - Mahabharata is filled with it - it's all kinds of ways in which one can find ones own personal integrity. It's a code of ethics, a code of morality, that you will know what should be done and what should not be done. Not because someone else told you or you memorized it - because there will be thousands of situations that do not fit that exact mold or teaching - but to be able to feel within oneself that right now, in this situation that I am in, this is the best way I can be of service, this is the way I can show loving kindness to this other person, this is the way I can embody the Divine.
This is what we expect from God, kindness to us, we expect support, we expect love. When we go before their Lordships, the deities in the temple, we basically throw ourselves at Them asking Them for these things, because we know They have it in abundance. So if we wish to demonstrate to others how wonderful this science of divinity is, than we ourselves should embrace that love, embrace that kindness, embrace that support, and be there sharing that loving energy with others.
You can preach and say, "It says in the Shastra, you must do this, you cannot to that," you can do that. But it is not as effective as that love, and kindness which you share as a person. For me, when I saw in the beginning what Prabhupada did - in the very beginning - is, he shared himself as a loving, kind, concerned and caring, spiritual father, that attracted everybody.
On the other hand when he would give this very... to us than it would impress us, but that was not a great way to preach to others. Because when Prabhupada was in front of others, he adapted his speaking to accommodate them. So it is not 'cut and dry' that you must consider all of us, I must consider, we must consider, who we are speaking to, and their particular personality, their particular needs.
And what is a better place to start, than at home?! With your family or in the temple, to make the primary consideration kindness, that people should want to do what they are doing out of their own decision and energy. Not because it's the way they're going to get liberation, or not because that's what they have to do, or not because they want to impress somebody, but because they feel it deeply in their hearts, in their minds, in their souls.
That they are sharing, that they have felt this energy of the love of God shared to them by a kind and loving person who cares about them.
Time 57:45
And if an organization - because after all an organization it basically boils down to, you got a building, people live in it or not, you cook, you take care of things, you clean, you have some kind of like business whether it be selling books, I know, transcendental, it doesn't matter, business is going on. There is to a certain extend a corporate management. And even if you try to cover that with words like, "It's a spiritual corporate management, it's a spiritual organization", unless those who are doing it have that embracing of that kindness principle first and foremost, corporations tend to work towards their own self-preservation first and foremost, corporations tend to work towards building up, increasing. And that tends to work against the interests of individuals who are not fulfilling their role or playing their part or who are a troublesome personality.
But companies get away with that because they're paying people. You pay somebody, you have a certain leeway to. Look, "I'm paying you, it's a work, it's a work, it's a deal, it's an agreement." But in a spiritual organization it's not the same. There has to be that feeling from within and that feeling is fueled with the kindness of leadership, the kindness of support, the kindness of caring. If somebody's sick to actually care, if somebody's troubled to actually care and come up with solutions, and if you're doing to much, to cut it down.
Because ultimately your religious society is only as good as the people in it. You can have the greatest philosophy in the universe, you can have the greatest, elitist, most perfect, most wonderful, most fantastic. But if the people in that organization are not feeling that within deeply, that support, that care, that love, what have you got? Some words, some exterior facade.
So my realization has been that people are number one always, in every circumstance. So I have made the personal choice to make my decisions based on that principle, and to take responsibility for my choices. I take the responsibility and I take the consequences because they're my responsibilities. So when I... when somebody asks me, "Oh, I have this trouble and that thing and that thing," I specifically stick to help that person understand how to make their lives better.
And it's not my responsibility to solve this bigger problems, unless you ask me as a consultant sociologically speaking, or psychic, psychologically speaking or from political science point of view, the economics of it point of view. You can creat structure that works and you can creat a family of people that feel good, but doing the both is the greatest challenge that anyone can face, especially spiritualists. It is very difficult and it requires a whole new group of people who manage and lead on the principle of kindness.
Time 1:02:52
Kasisvara: Thank you so much Hari. We have His Holliness Bhakti Rasayance Sagara Maharaja siting next to me, and he would like to ask you something.
Hari: Sure.
Bhakti Rasayance Sagara Swami: Thank you for your sharing. We would like to understand better your explanations. If you could please illustrate them with the stories connected to your early years of preaching in the former Soviet Union and what are the lessons you can draw from those stories? And how are you doing things differently now, how your understanding and consciousness or what kind of conclusions you came to on the basis of those relations. Because when you illustrate something with stories we can understand much better.
Hari: Yes, you're right. I'd like to give the story of how we got captured in Riga, because I think it will display on multiple levels my concerns. Up till that point I was doing very much the family thing, I really liked it being very personal and everything was... And than in Riga there was this... they made it into something like a Guru Puja. And I when I left my hotel, I had already seen in the airport, the Intourist people were suspicious, in my hotel I noticed there were a lot of KGB guys around, and when I went to the program one of the KGB guys whispered just as I was walking past him, "Jaya Vishnupada."
Okay, I knew we were sunk, I knew that this is the end and maybe I'm in Siberia, I've no question of it. Anyway, so on my way to the Gulag (?), we went out to the front door of the hotel and there's Rama Bhakta Das with his car. He was a driver and it had sheets on the seats, white sheets - a car. No-one in history had ever put white sheets on a car and there were... it was so (inaudible). So I said, "Do not bring this car, drive it away!" and "I'm going to walk to this program."
So what happens, there's like four or five, six, following me as I'm walking. And the car is going like two miles an hour following me, the car with the white sheets. (Many are laughing) "Gulag here we come." (laughing) And than... so we finally, after 15 minutes of this, get to the flat. And so we entered the courtyard, the window is open and there's a raging Kirtan going on and we hear it all through the courtyard. And I go upstairs and I get changed, and they sit me down on some kind of a Vyasasana and they start to wash my feet. And I say, "Are you crazy, do you want us to all get us drown in prison? What is wrong with you, don't you ever watch TV? Don't you know anything what's going on?"
And Ananta Stanti tells me, "We have a constitution, we have freedom of religion, they cannot stop us from doing this." I said, "What planet are you from? Do you have any idea what you're doing? Stop it!" He said, "We want to do this." So I mean as far as an example of what not to do, as far as an example of how to misread the situation, you could not get a better one.
And than, okay, we leave that place - I don't know why they didn't arrest us than, I found out later why - and we go to this program in some hall. And it is packed, packed with people. And I know there's no hope. I look in the back of the room and there were two undercover - you knew they were KGB, that's all there was to it, I mean I watched enough TV, I knew what was going on - and they were looking out the window to down bellow, and than the girl goes like this (Hari shows with his hand) and a couple of minutes later I'm having a Kirtan playing on the film cans, I'm playing mrdanga on the film cans - they were empty thank God! Playing mrdanga on the film cans and than they bust down the door, and than they come in, and everything... Kirtiraja probably told you.
Anyway, organization can work for you, organization can work against you. And again when organization works for you, it's great. I mean a Ratha Yatra, I love for example when, you know, they have Ratha Yatra in New York City. I'd only been to it I think twice, I loved it, it was wonderful. You know the whole city closed down on Fifth Avenue and Lord Jaganatha swollen down. I remember in Jaganatha Puri - not Jaganatha Puri - in Calcutta, during Ratha Yatra, I threw so many bananas out of the cart I couldn't move my arm for three days. That kind of organization, sure, that is wonderful.
But when organization is to a certain extend mindless, when it's just moving ahead to accomplish a purpose without considering all of the people involved as individuals, not just an amorphous group, you can get yourself in big trouble. So that was one example. I don't feel like giving another. So I hoped that helped, at least it was fun.
Kashishvara: Yes please, if you can tell more we would be excited of course, yeah.
Time 1:11:45
Hari: I don't know if you remember that concert in the Olympicsky Stadium
Kasisvara: Oh yes, Gauranga Bhajan Band.
Hari: We had hired 200 policemen to manage the crowd. There were so many people in that stadium, the police chief came and said, "We quit, we're not going to place our lives in danger because of this crowd. The capacity of the stadium, I think, was 31 thousand and we had like 34. And there supposed to be chairs, that all went away, it was all crazy standing, crazy people crowd. And so the police chief told me, "If there's anybody hurt, injured or killed, it's your responsibility." Me, biting nails. (Many are laughing)
So I'm up there trying to control this crowd. And it was coming like waves, thousands of people making waves pushing back and forth. And than somebody is lifted up in the front and carried away because they had fainted, and than another one lifted up carried away and fainted. "Oh, my God!"
So I go to Boy George and I say, "Listen, you cannot make a big deal running out there, you got to just go out quietly, I'll hide you, you'll sneak out there and we'll just try to somehow get this going." And he goes out, takes his head of and screaming, yahoo, yahoo! Running up on the stage and now everything goes bananas. (Laughing)
And there's another funny story that, you know, we had this smoke, we're going to do the smoke effect on the stage when people came out, we are going to have all this liquid oxygen, I mean this dry ice oxygen thing with the smoke coming out. And Brahmananda Puri - we spend a lot of money on that - Brahmananda thought something was wrong, something was on fire. So he went down there with a fire extinguisher and stomped down all of the dry ice things and completely nullified thousands of Dollars worth of... (arrangement) He thought it was on fire.
So the effect when I thought, where is the smoke? Where is the smoke, we needed it? - No smoke. (Laughing in the audience) So I mean large crowds are tough. Oh boy! But how it's effecting me today? I don't like crowds, I have post traumatic stress syndrome, (Laughing) I am crowded out, totally crowded out, no more crowds, no thank you. That's it with crowds. I like small. It's too intimidating.
Kasisvara: There is a question. If you could tell examples of organization working for your benefits.
Hari: Well, if you look at any... Well, I don't have enough experience there in Russia but I can tell you in America, in Sweden, I can tell you about Sweden, America, Germany, anyone of these places with an advanced social... it's called a social umbrella, that older people are cared for. If they have nobody to care for them, there's a place for them to be. We, we get social security also, which is we get money every month from the government, which we have paid into throughout or we have Medicare, which is insurance, which is that basically everything is payed for.
So it's called a social umbrella. In Sweden if you are not able to work, you're not able to make enough money, they give you that money every month. If you're pregnant, they will give you child support for two years. You get long term leave and you can't be fired. So these social programs created by governments or corporations, a lot of corporations have this too, to protect their workers.
That in that way they act in a manner where everybody is cared for ultimately. Okay, maybe not perfectly, but they're not going to die of neglect. And when I was in my last year of ISKCON, I was creating in Norway a foundation to give global health care to all devotees and to creat a pension for all devotees.
This was part of what we were going to use that enormous money that came from PameInvest, not PameInvest, from Gasprom, to make a global network of retirement fund, I did also gave Prithu the money to creat his hospice in Vrndavana, to make retirement funds, to make health insurance, global health insurance for those who did not have it and to make funds for scholarships, for education, so that teachers could be trained properly, caretakers could be trained properly. Included in this would be first aid instructions, nursing care - you know basic stuff, how to take care of people.
So I took the example of these governments, or these corporations, who were doing it, and was trying to creat that, but I didn't last long enough to do that. So in that way that kind of a methodology of caring I embraced and still do, that there must be a way to protect the people, to protect the people who work within that organization selflessly - not just feed them. And not only that but feed them, my goodness! you know, feeding them, you sometimes feed them the wrong stuff. You'll got to eat healthy.
I mean sure, Krishna likes Gulabjamuns and Rasagulas and sweet rice and all these stuff, but is that good for me? I mean what's the best for me as a person? That my diet it should be very much tailored to me, I mean even in Ayurveda, Ayurveda does not say one diet for everybody. The Kapha or the Vatha or the Pita or whatever mixtures there are, all have things which are good for them and things which are terrible for them.
So when you see individuals and you see their constitution, you see their needs, and your organization caters to that, (something) which is possible to do. I mean, different Ayurvedic groups... I mean, you probably don't know her, but Daksyakanya Devi Dasi from Argentina has become Deepak Chopra's cook at his festivals. She's right now cooking at a festival in southwestern Florida at an Ayurvedic Clinic for one of Elon Musk's best friends. And she's cooking according to the needs and requirements of the people there, that's why they want her. Because she sees them as individuals and accommodates them.
So not that everybody should eat the same thing, not that everybody should act the same way. That's why you have Brahmanas, Kshatriyas, Vaishys, Shudras. If you take somebody who's of a certain mentality and you stick them into an activity that's they're not comfortable in, it ruins them, it creates stress. And we should not think, "Well, we're transcendental, we're beyond that, we have no bodily needs or concerns." That's impersonalism. We're people, we're human beings, we have to live by the rules of our human existence.
The Varnashrama system was not created for the materialists, it was for everybody. Arjuna was a Kshatriya, not a materialist. We have to live within the reality of who we are. So our diet, our sleeping habits, our whether we can take cold or not, or whether or not we can do this work or not, or how we feel supported. What if we have a breakdown? What if we're pushed too far by circumstances or experiences that we could never have predicted? Are we to be left on our own or are we to be supported? And an enlightened society sees every individual and gives that support.
Time 1:23:15
It's what a family is all about. A family should prosper, the family should be supported, everyone should grow up to be the best they can possibly be. And such an organization and such a society will be very attractive, very attractive. Why does everybody talk about Maharaja Yudhishtira? Because that's his society, everybody's cared for. So much so, everyone was so happy, (even) the weather was good.
Now we're so screwing up the weather with our mentality of dystopian future, this catastrophe of the future. This anger and violence we show towards each other, the anger and violence we show towards these poor animals or other creatures, the anger and violence we show towards each other, it's just destroying the weather. Because nobody feels safe and secure, nobody feels comfortable. And that's in Maharaja Yudhishtira's society completely different. Everybody felt comfortable and secure, and the weather reflected that good energy emanating from all the people.
Because nature is responsive. You can effect a plant by thinking negatively to it, you can effect a plant positively by thinking love to it or bringing love to it, or feeling love for it. You can effect nature just as nature effects you, it's a symbiotic relationship. This divine nature we all live within, this creation of the divine beings and all the Devas who support under the control of Radha and Krishna, this divine nature and us, are intimately connected. And to feel that and to feel that support for all living entities within, is what makes everything a paradise. It's what makes a difference between Satya Yuga and Kali Yuga. The mentality of the people in it, the mentality of those who have the power to determine directions or determine the what is wanted.
And it all boils down to that principle of kindness, to be kind. I know there are caveats to that. Like if your child is going to do something incredibly stupid, you have to stop them naturally. But that is an act of kindness to protect them. And you don't keep that as your predominating principle, it's a momentary thing. If you say, I've got to be strict and strong because they needed (that) all the time, that's a mistake, that's not kindness, that's a miscalculation. Momentary correction or having to do the right thing, even if it's tuff and it requires courage, sure. But that's not the long term principle, that's a momentary principle.
Kasisvara: Thank you very much, it was really wonderful. Thank you very much for your association, for your time. It was really a great pleasure to see you again. It was like in good, early days, thank you, Hare Krishna!
Hari: Haribol! Bye.