Harimedia Forum

Dear Hari
All the so called knowledge and point of view on all existence and especially spiritual activates in our life mainly founded on faith.
In spirituality it is 100% for common people (not for real mistices)/
But even science is based on faith let say astronomy they have theories about other galactic and so on
but it is so far how can one really trust that the laws of nature wich they are using in there calculation is same on such a distances, so they have only faith that it is same.
My question is does faith have real value especially in spirituality.
What if one have faith to some wrong ideas which is not corresponding with reality,?
Or faith itself creates the special reality?
Are there any other way to move on the spiritual road except faith?

A scientist might have an opinion that he strongly believes. Whether or not he uses the term, he has some faith in the accepted standard of knowledge, his training in his field, his capacity to understand the data he observes and the conclusions he reaches, as well as the wisdom in the community of his peers and, ultimately, his own opinions. When the theories and opinions of scientists are challenged by new evidence or research, they often change their opinion because they are more concerned with a truth that works than an idea that doesn't.

A religionist often embraces a faith because it feels right to them. They accept it and its authority. Their personal experiences amplify their faith as they fit everything in their life into their religious ideal. They find their faith carries them through problems and painful situations. If the system they embrace requires surrendering to scriptures and authorities, they reject external challenges or alternative ideas. A true believer remains faithful to the original ideal, even when that ideal is tested by circumstances. They generally accept any fault in their life to be a result of their inability to properly act.

A spiritualist aware of divine essence is not bound by faith in a belief system because their spirituality flows from within to interact with their world. Because they are continually challenged by momentary circumstances, experiences and ideas, they transform their consciousness to accommodate their changing world. Going with the flow of life is a natural course for one who experiences things as they are rather than what a belief system says they should be. This kind of spiritualist is somewhat of a hybrid between a scientist and a religionist. They observe the world around them, experience how their interactions with others change their world, and adjust their actions to insure compatibility with their energy. They have faith that they can deal with any situation without losing their spiritual integrity. They remain true to themselves and their connection to the divine.

Dear Hari
you wrote

[A spiritualist aware of divine essence is not bound by faith in a belief system because their spirituality flows from within to interact with their world. Because they are continually challenged by momentary circumstances, experiences and ideas, they transform their consciousness to accommodate their changing world. Going with the flow of life is a natural course for one who experiences things as they are rather than what a belief system says they should be. This kind of spiritualist is somewhat of a hybrid between a scientist and a religionist. They observe the world around them, experience how their interactions with others change their world, and adjust their actions to insure compatibility with their energy. They have faith that they can deal with any situation without losing their spiritual integrity. They remain true to themselves and their connection to the divine.
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I like very much the way as spiritualists is described by you since for us and most of educated modern people to have a blind faith of relegionists is hardly acceptable, ecspesially since spiritualists based not on the fear but on the investigation of nature of all .

Dear Hari,

Thank you for this very accurate depiction of the "spiritual scenario". The science works exactly the way you described it. For some reason, we have a tendency to either reject our inner feelings and intuition to only rely on the "objective facts" = tertium non datur, or we become fanatically attached to the closed religion systems, and we buy "the whole package" of the given system with beliefs and rules that may not refer to us as we are today. Either way, faith is needed, either you believe your experiment or your religious leaders.
I do not like strong leaders as they have a tendency to stop your own growth. Either in physical world science or spiritual science. Probably, their intentions are originally good but the effects may be deleterious.
Just as you treat somebody for a disease, and you over treat him.

Anyway, very inspiring and encouraging comment by you.
One question: to preserve "the spiritual integrity" in any situation. What is in your opinion and experience the best strategy? To pray? To meditate? To give and serve at any cost? Or to withdraw from the situations that are too challenging?

You preserve your spiritual integrity by not allowing others to drown you in their own problems, by not doing something you know is not the best thing to do, by always being true to yourself, and by sharing yourself with others according to your desire to express what you are. There are other things too, but this is the gist of it. Prayer is not part of this. No one should give and serve at any cost! We have to consider all the factors involved in action, including the price to pay for fulfilling our needs and the circumstances we are in. We are not slaves who must act as we are told or according to some archaic ideal. If we see that a situation is too challenging, then certainly withdraw from it!

Thank you.
I find the topic very important and practical as well. I refer to the first sentence of your comment. For me, it has been maybe the greatest challenge in life. This is what I meant by to endure vs. to withdraw. I think the greatest part of this challenge is a fear of not being accepted or to be rejected by others. Or to be brave enough to live the way to be true to yourself. But I would like to explore it even more.
An example: I hate see animals suffer and the vision of their suffering has been plaguing me for a very long time. However, I have to live with and interact with people for whom eating meat is an obvious part of their existence. These people are otherwise a valuable part of my life, both on a professional and private plan. I like them, I like to talk to them, I like discussing different topics with them, I like meeting them and having a good time. In the back of my mind, I am sometimes frustrated why they cannot get it that this part of their existence creates suffering ? But I never discuss it with them. How do you deal with such inner conflicts? I am sure it is a part of your life's experience too.

Either you sit in a room alone all the time, or you accept people who they are despite them doing some things you do not like. After all, if I ignored people who did something I did not like, I would ignore everyone, all the time. I try to relate to everyone as they are and not as I wish them to be, although included within my interaction are my best wishes. I always reserve the option to accept or reject any association. Why I accept or reject interacting with others is complex. There are thousands of factors in every relationship. Just do the best you can. There is no reason to lose yourself within other person's faults. You are who you are, they are who they are. They are not you and you are not them. You can try to be of service when your service is desired, or you can just be a friend who shares his consciousness and awareness. How much you take from others depends on you. It is your choice.

Thank you of sharing this comment. I hope you do not mind if I come back to the first line of your former answer:
"You preserve your spiritual integrity by not allowing others to drown you in their own problems"
Do you mean "to assist" but not "to engage yourself"? To be observer and not the part of the scenario? Instinctively, I understand very well what you mean. However, whatever you do and whatever choices you make will make you a part of the interactions sooner or later. If you see a beggar on the street, you have to make a choice, to give him money or not, to ignore him or to interact with him. This is his life but your paths cross at this moment. Could you add some explanation to this specific line?

We have to engage ourselves to assist others. But if you are stopping the bleeding of someone in an accident, are you bleeding? No! Do you feel badly that they are bleeding, maybe, but it is more important to stop their bleeding. How can you help someone as a doctor if you become bewildered by the pain of your patients? The correct attitude is to listen and observe and do what is best for the patient. To listen and observe you require detachment. If you are involved in their suffering, you can no longer properly listen or observe because you are now as important as they are and also require help.

If I see a beggar and feel that I should help, I do. If I feel I should not, I do not. I make that choice. In neither case am I absorbed in the life of the beggar. I am simply determining how to properly respond.

Yes, I see what you are trying to say. I think the word "properly" is the crucial one. We make choices all the time. I read at many places that the first thing you feel when interacting with others is the the reflection of your real nature. You can literally hear the voice saying what is good for you at the moment. But we used to rationalise and calculate, to filter out what is threatening us in our imagination. Is it really good for me to engage or to sacrifice a bit of my time/energy/money for the other one in need? Then we "adjust" our spontaneous response to the result of our calculation, and, often, we retreat from the battle. Walsch has written that a person who sees that realises and convinces himself (has faith) that this is good for him (whatever happens in the end) but the master knows that. I am definitely not a master but I am dreaming of being one. It must be a great experience to know instead of having faith and to act accordingly.

Nicely said!

Thank for your kind words. Happy to discuss it with you.