Harimedia Forum

Dear Hari
I want to ask another question about Varnasharama.
Can you say wath real benefit will get people as individual s and sosiety as whole, from this sistem?
And why do the sosiety need that sistem,? Wath is the real meaning of this sistem,?
Why i am asking since we have an example of India where Varnashrama sistem was the way of a huge country many years
but as a result it doesnt at all look as atractive sistem more then that it became at present the hinderence in many ways for
evolution of millions.


And another question in this regard how and why one should figure out his varna wath is a need for it to make another label,?
And who will be the Ones who taking risk and responsibility to label others,?
And why one should trust them,/,,?
Wath place have the concept of independace in this sistem?
Since indipandance as i understand is one of main platform from ones evolution isnt it,?

I wrote a book about this a long time ago...

Krsna spoke of the most important aspect of this system in the Gita: everyone has an inclination to work and the qualities that support that work. Your varna (the manner of work that fits your potential best) falls within some very basic guidelines. We are all born with this basic quality and it forms the basis of how we might best earn our livelihood or serve within society. Knowing that we are born with a specific quality helps us understand why we succeed at some things and fail at others. But then again, there is nature and then there is nurture wherein a conflict arises when we are naturally a business person but were raised to be a leader. In this case the individual is unhappy or unfulfilled as a leader, and more comfortable with figuring out ways to produce, sell and make money. One can safely conclude that it is more advantageous for an individual to be trained and encouraged to act according to their nature.

The real benefit of varna is a social psychological one, where individuals are given the best opportunity to fulfill their potential. This creates strong, stable and healthy people who can support a complex society. Since varna is linked to the basic nature of human beings and therefore cannot be erased, working with it can only benefit society.

Understanding the propensity and quality of children is traditionally the realm of parents and teachers. Ultimately, the individual will understand their own nature even without this initial guidance.

Dear Harijee
Thank you for answer
But still I don’t understand how in society and especially in the sects can be introduced Varnashrama
By the way there so many astrologers and psychologists helping people to figure out there
professional proper duties, is it not enaf,?
Wath is a need to make the social system ?
I am sincerely thinking that it can become as labeling people and be very much misused by some group.
Maybe I am wrong but I don’t have answers on it, sincerely.
As I understand, the whole essence of proper society is the satisfaction which people in it as individuals have to have and as a result the whole society will be satisfied entity
One of the main problems in finding satisfaction is proper engagement of each individual
According to his real desires and capacities.
The problem is wath is real desires since during the lifetime one can get hundreds of artificial desires
which is not at all his really own ones for example when one associate with smokers can get the desire to smoke and under the havvy advertisement can get other desires also due to envy and competition and other reasons/
So until one not engaged in the field of activities which is corresponding with his real desires
he will be not satisfied not full and will feel some kind of constant worrying.
The real satisfaction is coming when one executing his dharma his duties towards all dependents
Towards Gods and ones who helped him and himself as well/
So two things is really important for satisfaction
Activities which he should perform and duties which he have to perform towards dependents
Varnashrama system initially was made exactly for getting maximum as it possible satisfaction in life stream for individuals and for society since without satisfaction will not be a peace and without peace will not be good spiritual contact.
Varna means the specific group of activities which one can perform according to ones nature and real desires which is also coming from his nature.And this group of activities afcourse will be in service
ultimately, to whole society in direct or indirect ways .
Ashrama is the status in which one have very specific duties towards dependents and society also
This is my understanding of varnaashrama in very short
But for activities based on real desires one should have his own free will no others
And actually for proper society, people should act on the level of freewill and should be independent Since the practice showed that the society or union of independent peoples is more active more bright and more attractive than an army like society based on fear.
That is why in vedic literature the main principal to defining own varna was not base om birth but
was based on ones qualification and personal desire later own it was changed.
Afcourse we all depend on each other on some level but here is not about that dependence.
So when arising the question how in sects can be established varnashrama I really don’t see
any real way since people there don’t have the basic platform of independence in all means the most important platform for revealing ones on soul desires.
And practically in same situation many people in society most of them in some kind of sects

Perhaps you did not understand my reply completely? I chose not to reply with the negative aspects of varnasrama and the obvious conclusion that it is impossible to implement in any form that existed in the past. I emphasized those aspects of it that had the most value by focusing on the essence of varna and how the system highlighted the need for people to understand how everyone interacted in a properly working society. I do not care who figures out who is who. Whatever works! Labels are only as bad as they are incorrect. We label everything, all the time. If people know who they are and how to best live their lives, this cannot be bad. If they further know the optimal way to interact with others, this can only help.

But how that is done and who is to do it is another issue entirely. But if you do not think the system has value, why ask about it? And if it does not have true value at present, who cares who will determine what?

Perhaps what I am asking you is, what is the point of the inquiry? What do you really want to know?

My whole point in this question was to figure out the real value of this sistem.
Althought i understand it values in the way as i understand ( as explained in my previous text) but i dont see wath will come really from it and how.
And the isue how that can be done and who is to do is also a big question is nt it,?
Yes you are right i didnt understand why you didnt answer the negative aspects of varnashrama but this not the point.

OK, then what I answered first is the real value of the system! It is a very valuable thing! Know who you are as an individual and what basic social type is best for you. Recognize this in others. Learn to relate with the least friction and with the greatest group benefit.

Implementing this is far easier than trying to implement an entire social system. Understanding the structure of optimal interaction in society is a good thing that benefits every society regardless of belief systems. I personally see no benefit for modern people beyond this one aspect of varna understanding. But this one thing is the essence of it all, so one does not need anything else.

All social templates require a deeper understanding of the varna archetypes described. When these fundamental social types are understood better, how they relate to each other will become more obvious. The major hindrance to the acceptable implementation of these relations is the lack of ethic in the people and the degraded self-interest that is rampant in the world today. At present, society is faced with an almost insurmountable task of restoring the human condition, meaning, to restore goodness in society. This begins by culturing good people who create good families. It is a major task, but one that must be undertaken.

Dear Hari
Your answers somehow made me think more and more and I suddenly figured out how many deep meanings in every sentence you wrote
Especially I really began to realize how important the meaning of the following your sentence

“The major hindrance to the acceptable implementation of these relations is the lack of ethic in the people and the degraded self-interest that is rampant in the world today”

I never thought about this very important aspect of Varnaashrama.
Actually in any society will not be real evolution and happiness if people doesn’t really honour
the really ones who carrying the moral and spiritual values.(not bogus ones I mean the bogus brahmanas and gurus)
Now days the most value is to get money by hook or crook and the ones who without any
values becoming successful in that they becoming the heroes the most adorable ones nobody cares how and what they did for it and what characters they are( just see on this so called stars).
It was also for me a complete new interesting issue the other sentence that you wrote

“Understanding the structure of optimal interaction in society is a good thing that benefits every society regardless of belief systems. “

As I understand that varnashrama system is not the possession of Hinduism and can be implemented
In any society regardless there believe system it very interesting

Actually, for me it is obvious that in every society there are varnas but still.
Can you please explain in more details what you mean?

Also your sentence is really really true. . At present, society is faced with an almost insurmountable task of restoring the human condition, meaning, to restore goodness in society. This begins by culturing good people who create good families. It is a major task, but one that must be undertaken.
People lost their orienteers families lost their deep meaning
homosecsualism hypocrisy cheating valueless movements and valueless businessmen’s and all kind
of crasyness became usual in present society.
There are no any more traditions which was the meaning for carrying values.
Yes families I agree is real foundation in any society since if families is not good childrenes will have
so may hindrances in there evolution and education in proper meaning of this ward.
In this regard also appearing another question it coming from my past which nowadays
At all not important for me but still I am sometime warrying about them.


I mean how in such antisocial antifamily societies (sects)can be implemented
Varnashrama?
Although they also have so much goodness.



By the way
You was totally right every single word is a lable actually everything is labeled in our life.
Let say we are trying to explain wath is a table by this word we are labeling the whole category of
things which look as same but actually they are all different.
Same all other words ,people,stars,gods ,pens, mans ,womans and e.t.c
It is actually the whole very interesting
issue.

Varna is a label in the sanskrit language. Every language has a label to denote similar concepts. In English one could say occupational categories or divisions of labor or all kinds of things, but sociologists throughout the world have similar terms in their own language. Every culture has a conception of division of labor within their society and an existing "code" or set of expectations for those within each kind of work. These expectations are manifest in the interactions that exist in the workplace. Teachers are supposed to act as teachers, for example. When they do not act with the intelligence, respect, sensitivity or awareness of the needs of those they teach, we get upset. Military personnel have their standard roles. Government leaders are supposed to organize, protect, and increase prosperity. Farmers produce food, businessmen create and distribute goods, and workers build and so on. We are all, throughout the world, aware of social divisions.

There are a few things we are unaware of. The most important is the four basic divisions and the manner in which they ideally interact. Another is that we all naturally tend towards a particular kind of work when we are allowed to. Cultivating these two things will assist every society.

How to do this requires educating people and their leaders of the importance of these principles as well as educating families, supporting compatible cultures and traditions, and assisting people to find themselves. This is not something you or I can do on a large scale. What you or I can do is to help each individual we meet to understand themselves and to find out the best way to interact with others in the world. More than this we cannot do without far more facility and support.

That people in ISKCON cannot figure this out is nothing new. Although ISKCON people proclaim to be Prabhupada followers, in truth they are not. If one were to analyze his lectures, one would find the topic he spoke of most was the institutionalization of varnas. Yet, it is ignored in ISCKON as material. I find it slightly interesting, although it makes perfect sense considering that people pick and choose what they want to know and follow according to what they think they need or what they might get out of it. Since most are eager for liberation and getting free from the pains of this world, worrying about properly organizing society is not seen as essential. Besides, they are mainly not educated and have no skill to do this. But that is another issue entirely.

Harijee in this regard arising more questions
From your answers I understood that your vision of varnashrama is not based only on scriptures
I totally agree with you but I cannot understand wath will be the new understanding of varnas and ashramas in modern world?
In Sanskrit texts there was a very elaborate explanations of the duty’s of one who is in such and such ashrama and varna.
How this stages of live (ashramas)will be aplyed for modern people wath should be dutys for certain ahsrama and varna for modern people ,,?
I am asking this since the societies nowadays and in old ages when was written the duties for varnas and ashramas are complitly different.

There are much more questions appearing when we examine varnas.
Varnas can be recognized by activities or maybe more by motivations?
Let examine ashramas, first one had to become brahmachari according to sastras, a student for many years should live under the total control of teachers (gurus) he should totally control his senses(ecspesially sexual desire) and should not mix with oposit sex.And this was only for mens and womans didn’t have any such dutyes.More then that it is written in the Sanskrit texts that ladies even when they are 11 years old should be given to marriage and that all with them.
But in modern world it is not like that and cannot anymore be like that all the ladies also getting education and they are free for there life and never one of them will want to be marry in such a young age. They have equal rights with mens and it is very good but in vedic times it wasn’t in this way
Allthought they was very much appreciated and loved but still they didn’t have same rights.
The next ashrama is householder he should earn money according to his varna and maintain his family
and help people this is more or less is ok nowdays if we don’t consider so many divorces .
But what about vanaprastha and sanyasa this cannot be applied to modern people in a way as it was described in vedic literature .Sanyasa is hardly possible for most of the people
How this stages of live will be for modern people let say for us,,?
There are much more questions appearing when we examine varnas.
Varnas can be recognized by activites or maybe more by motivations?
I am asking this because since there are examples of monks but there motivation can be more
economical then spiritual so many so called brahmanas who think only about money wich is
not the characteristic of a brahmana.
And wath about scientist thay supposed to be brahmanas but actually many of them are shudras from my point of vew or vaishyas?
And also so many politicians who just vayshyas but not Kshatriyas since they don’t care about people at all.
Most artiests in vedic culter was considered as shudras aho are they now,?
Actually in very short what will be the definition of Brhmana Kshatria and Vaishya for modern society
For modern people,?
And should we base our understanding of Varnashrama on vedic scriptures,?

I am somewhat uncertain how to answer your question. You seem to be writing from the point of view that somehow I want to restore varnashrama or that it should be restored by us or someone. I do not wish to restore varnashrama and I seriously doubt anyone else can restore it. The way it has been used in the past seems incompatible with the modern world. The only aspect of it with academic value for the modern world is the relation between the varnas, which is particularly relevant to social scientists or social engineers. They might incorporate some of these principles in the planning or designing they do, even though they most probably will not label what they are saying as varnashrama.

Considering this, perhaps you want to rephrase your question? Otherwise, I don't see the point in me struggling to defend something I see little point in defending.

My intention is realy to try understand the importance of this social institution for modern world ,and nothing else.
Since we are using the word varnashrama and it came from old vedic scriptures with its definition i am trying to figure out
wath will it be for modern time and why it is so important.

Ok, so I answered your question in my last text, right?

The only aspect of it with academic value for the modern world is the relation between the varnas, which is particularly relevant to social scientists or social engineers. They might incorporate some of these principles in the planning or designing they do, even though they most probably will not label what they are saying as varnashrama.

Here is something interesting, I think

I saw a movie called "Divergent" and it dealt with a post modern twist with implementing varnashrama! There were "factions" as they were called, and two of them represented brahmanas (who are erudite and truthful) and the other three corresponded to the other three varnas. I do not want to give away the plot, but I think if you can see it, you might have fun with it!

I saw that movie long ago and yestarday had a look again and it was one of the reasons that i began to make questions ,since i understood that people interested on this isues.
From that movie looks that the motivation is the first point for deffenition then the activity itself is second/
And the idea that someone can have the qualication of all 3 Varnas it is interesting i know someone like that.But do you believe that it is possible?
Personally i undestand that when one really engaged in his field of activityes the one which he really like
not because money and so on,then he can be really happy and satisfied and then more then that his childrens have a big and good chance to get into that proffesion easally without extra endavour without difficulties and become happy ,so like that familly traditions will come out and whole sosiety
will be very simple to manage.
MOre then that one can have the best possibity to assosiate with others who have the same goals in the life and this is even more important since we all social beeings is nt it?
But there can afcourse come many nagative things as we saw in the movie and it i belive happened/
Can you say who should rule the sosiety brahmanas or Kshatryas?

Can you say who should rule the sosiety brahmanas or Kshatryas?

What is your option on this?