Harimedia Forum

Warm greetings for You, Hari!

Now, to the question.

In my work I have to deal almost daily with people who are dying, out of older or cancer or other tragedies.
I wonder what is their real destination, what are the going to experience when they come across the border, do they meet they relatives? is it a positive experience for them to die although all the others lament?
Then, why do we have to die ? Why is it a part of our existence? What is the meaning behind? Personally, I hate dying and I suffer when I see people dying.
I have, of course, some background from the old ISKCON-times, but I think that this basic question for me was never discussed in a non-dogmatic and open way in its structures.
In other words, what is it that has some persistent value for us when we die, what is not dying?

Regards,
Akhila L

Dear Akhilaji

I recommend that you read two books by Michael Newton, Journey of Souls and Destiny of Souls, for these books give you some detailed glimpses into the scenario that can be experienced at death. What is written there does not seem to be the complete and total understanding of what happens after death for there are other descriptions from other sources which amplify our knowledge of what happens.

It would be dishonest of me to say I have no personal experience of this realm. As I am dedicated to sharing my experiences, I shall relate some of the more essential elements of these experiences with you. These same experiences are available to you under special circumstances that you can self-induce or be led into by those who are qualified to assist you. When you meditate for longer periods of time and intend to have your questions answered, different revelations come to you which give you some pieces of the puzzle. Hypnotherapy can be very useful to opening up your locked up awareness and clearing up the remaining pieces. In some cases this is shocking; in others it is relieving.

Dying is a very individual process. How one departs from the body plays an important role in what comes next. As there are unlimited scenarios, I shall try to describe the most common as briefly as I can.

Those who leave their bodies in full consciousness without any baggage, attachments, pride or inimical feelings towards others in this world can directly attain whatever destination they aim for. Let me use the example of Sridhar Swami, my old friend and companion. His example is the best I know of at present, not because he had the right destination in mind (I am not bringing that into question here), but because he executed his departure in an almost flawless fashion and thus this example can help others who wish to gain any particular destination they wish. In his life, he was an honest seeker, a person who questioned deeply and was not afraid of public opinion. He had his grip on truth and what he believed and had openly declared his desire for his ultimate destination. In other words, he was very clear about what he wanted and how he was to get it. His intention was not born of some ideal and he was not clinging to faith. He knew what he wanted so deeply that nothing and no one could shake him from it.

He knew he was going to die for a long time. He had many forays into near death and many close calls. Although he did his very best to get healed, he knew it was hopeless. Let us leave out of this discussion the deep-rooted death wish that haunted him as he felt there was no place for him in this world of misery, as he put it, for although this unnecessary death wish could have been the cause for his early departure from this world, he accepted it and therefore we should not consider it -- as the question was about leaving this world, not staying in it. Staying in this world was not his strong point and his example was not always exemplary (but he did really damn good anyway!), as he would be the first to point out. Yet his honesty in pointing this out and his fearlessness in discussing himself was his strength. Here we see a contradiction: a person who lived to die, yet died in a really fine manner. So let us examine the fine manner of his death and leave aside the difficulty he faced in life.

However he felt about his own life or the world within which he lived, he was a fine man who loved very, very deeply. I miss him so much that it is hard to write this, but I feel inspired to do so.

In his last years he endeavored to go everywhere in the world and see every single last person with whom he might have had some entanglement or some bad feelings. He resolved each and every one of these potential stumbling blocks with his openness, his honesty and his huge heart. He never avoided the pain that naturally comes when you have to retrace your past and right the things you felt you did wrong. By so doing he voided the slate of karma that could have held him back in this world and became free from the negative elementals that others could have placed on him out of their own twisted understanding of life. Remember, he was aiming at complete and total liberation from this world. Simultaneously, he shared with all he met his love and they grew from that. Together he and those he met grew and learned to appreciate the love that we can share which is all there really is in this world of value.

I will never forget his visits to our house. He did not avoid poking fun at himself since he did not take himself seriously. However, this was not done in a self-effacing manner; rather, he saw the humor in his situation and was not afraid of diminishing his position by pointing it other to others. He was a dedicated person, convinced of what he felt was the truth, yet ready to embrace you despite differences of opinion.

When he felt it was time to die, he went to that place where he felt most comfortable and safe and absorbed himself in the energy of Lord Caitanya. Yet he never lost his sense of humor, never took himself all that seriously, and never tried to claim any position in the future either historically or socially. He truly severed all relations with this world for his goal in life was to return to the place he called home.

I was meditating on him as he died and I requested Radha to give me a vision of what happened to him. Out of love for him I will share this with you. When he left his body, he let out a scream Hari Hari Bol and raced back to the spiritual world with a power that left me breathless. And he never returned [update: seems like he wanted to do more service here]. Simply marvelous.

Others leave a long trail of entanglement when the die. They leave their body and are immediately struck by all the things they should do before they can move on. They visit their relatives, one after another, and try to console them and give them strength by telling them they are alright. Some feel their presence and some not. They go to those who they now see were victimized by them in some way or other and unsuccessfully try to make amends. They clearly see how they did many things wrong, yet they can do nothing to change it. This period lasts for some time, more or less depending on the circumstances of the person. It can either be a few seconds or much longer. Some remain until they can be disgorged from their situation by powers of good.

It is here, in this in-between stage, that a few persons become confused by their desire. Some create a world of their own making that appeals to them. It can include persons who have died previously who they still wished to live with, or be in places where they have warm and comforting memories. They create their own reality and live within it for as long as they wish. This is a static situation that requires higher intervention to transform.

Those who have no attraction to creating an alternate reality are called upwards when they have finished visiting those they needed to see one last time and they move towards the light. It is called the light because it is a very bright place that blinds one to its features. When they get there they are usually greeted by a person or a group. When they have undergone a great trauma, they are usually met by one person who takes them to a healing place. When the trauma is exceptionally great, they may find themselves surrounded by a group of healers who transmit healing energy to them until they are brought out of that circle when they are ready.

Those who did not die within such a traumatic state and those who have calmed down after a traumatic death are met by persons who are within their group of loved ones. They greet them warmly, embrace them and explain to them their present situation. As the mind clears of the previous life, they feel comfortable in their familiar surroundings and bond again with those they love and who love them.

They usually go through a period of reviewing their previous lives. They see their faults and the consequences of their choices. They are commended on the good they do, and are often surprised at how little things they did not consider important were of such great value. They understand what they needed to learn in their last life and how well they went through their task of growth.

We are not forced to accept the situations of our present lives as a result of our previous actions. We choose to accept these situations when we see the necessity to do so. The pain and struggle we face are part of our tasks that assist us to leave off unwanted habits and actions that do us no good and harm others. We voluntarily accept these situations because we know they will help us grow. We have the choice to either go through a tough series of events in our next lives or to take it more or less easier till we gain the strength to go through the tougher experiences we need to evolve. We share in designing our fate with our guides who suggest paths we could accept and the consequences of accepting these paths.

When we are ready we take birth again in that place and time best suited to our accomplishing our tasks in our next chapter of our evolutionary journey.

What does not die is our fully conscious essence which carries with it our ideal of what we can be and what we wish to be.

Dear Hari!
Thank you for this extensive and detailed reply.
I have actually read these two books and found them very inspiring, not only because of author's dedication and scrupulosity. They've changed a lot in my understanding of the process of dying.

In your reply I found a very interesting, if not revolutionalizing passage:
"We are not forced to accept the situations of our present lives as a result of our previous actions. We choose to accept these situations when we see the necessity to do so. The pain and struggle we face are part of our tasks that assist us to leave off unwanted habits and actions that do us no good and harm others. We voluntarily accept these situations because we know they will help us grow. "

So far when I heard someone talking of or explaining the law of karma the obvious point was that we are forced to suffer/enjoy due to our past deeds without possibility of changing it. "You have to suffer to burn out your karma". You cannot change your karma, this is forced upon you etc.

In this "new" perspective our world is more an educational institution than a prison with a differentiated grade of suffering for "our sins". How come that this concept is almost absent in the traditional religions?

Another important point in what you said is that our fathers, mothers, wifes, husbands etc are not only a temporary karmic product of one life but rather close and almost eternal (?) associates that we should not ignore and neglect but respect knowing that we are really a close family.
When I think about it now I feel we missed an essential point some years ago in Old Good Times...

Now I will touch another problem connected with dying.
The immortal or endless nature of one's existence seems to me (as I try to imagine this) as petrifying as the perspective of terminating the present life. Is it this feeling that lies behind the will to stop existence by becoming void or one? Is it a universal phenomenon or individual? Is the cure for it universal or individual?

Thank you for Sridhar Swami's story, very inspiring one.

Now I will touch another problem connected with dying.
The immortal or endless nature of one's existence seems to me (as I try to imagine this) as petrifying as the perspective of terminating the present life. Is it this feeling that lies behind the will to stop existence by becoming void or one? Is it a universal phenomenon or individual? Is the cure for it universal or individual?

I cannot speak for all who have such feelings, but if I had horrible problems in a life which was mainly characterized by suffering I would certainly be relieved if all the suffering were to totally cease after my death. At least I could look forward to that day with eagerness. I might create a philosophy where cessation of pain was linked with ending all existence.

However, it is also possible that after death the pain stops but life goes on in another way. Therefore there is no need to annihilate all life to get peace.

If your experience with life is a good one, or generally not so bad, then you would be more encouraged to think that life shall continue.

I think these principles are universal but are individually applied according to the circumstances of a particular lifetime. As far as a cure goes I would suggest that the best cure for a troublesome life is a life that is not so troublesome, or even better, a life filled with love.

Love in life and love of life are intimately connected.

Hari wrote:[ If your experience with life is a good one, or generally not so bad, then you would be more encouraged to think that life shall continue.

I think these principles are universal but are individually applied according to the circumstances of a particular lifetime. As far as a cure goes I would suggest that the best cure for a troublesome life is a life that is not so troublesome, or even better, a life filled with love.

Love in life and love of life are intimately connected.

Thank you.

The problem that I wanted to discuss deals with the fact that we often try to imagine an eternal alternative of the life we are experiencing now.
"What am I going to do when I (hopefully) regain my eternal status ?"
"Shall I dance with angels all the time, shall I pray or shall I watch TV without being disrupted? Shall I have family (eternal?) or what? Shall I play with God (Krishna) or shall I be a tree on Goloka (frankly, terrible alternative in my eyes, maybe I should place my bet somewhere else?

What is the eternal or real existence beyond death in fact? Is it so differentiated that you (any kind of an established teacher, generally) cannot describe it or you don´t know and try to cover it with complicated terms? Why should someone use terms from old scriptures to illustrate this (e.g. vedic scriptures) and not from our closest reality? And do the scriptures encompass the whole truth?

Your question goes to the heart of the belief system that many hold. I have addressed this question extensively in a lecture, but I cannot remember which one. If anyone out there remembers which one, please tell us in this forum since I do not wish to repeat something that was already dealt with in lecture format as my time is limited.

Your question is a good one, but it is answered in another place.

Hari wrote:
In his life, he was an honest seeker, a person who questioned deeply and was not afraid of public opinion. He had his grip on truth and what he believed and had openly declared his desire for his ultimate destination. In other words, he was very clear about what he wanted and how he was to get it. His intention was not born of some ideal and he was not clinging to faith. He knew what he wanted so deeply that nothing and no one could shake him from it.

Dear Hari!

I have got something for me after reading this topic. I have understood that if I die now it will not be the same as Shridhara Swami did. I have no clear idea about the truth, about the final destination. I have no clear idea about something at all, I can not define the percentage of my confidence in something, except one thing, I really want to live forever (not to die, not to disappear). I want to live in a society of beautiful people, associate with them on unselfish base, constantly extending our relationships. I think it is Sat Chit Ananda of the spiritual world.
When I have looked inside myself I realized that I need only it, I could not to wish something specific to me. If I imagine that I already have all of it, I feel myself very happy. What do You think, is it a goal for me? And what could I expect in the future? How can I to get closer to my dream?

You can either say you want something called THIS or you can say you want something that describes what THIS is without calling it that. They are the same. You can say you want the spiritual world, vaikuntha, sat-cit-ananda, or any other terminology that refers to a goal, or you could say you want to live in a place where there is love, peace, beauty, harmony and so on. You would be saying the same thing in either case. From this point of view, you are clear about what you want and where you wish to find it.

If you reach out for your dream, you have a better chance of attaining it than if you did not reach out. Seen from another point of view, however, it is not certain that transforming your consciousness in this life into some ideal for the next will get you there or that it even exists in the form you imagined. One can say with certainty that transforming your consciousness into the ideal required to attain such an elevated destination is the best way of spending your time in this life, for you will already taste the results of your efforts. When you do that successfully, you will see that the there you are looking for is also here, for you have transformed your consciousness to resonate according to that divine harmony. At that time, the here and the there of it all cease to be important. In fact, there is a good chance that the there one thinks to attain might not at all be what one thought when one gets there.

Yes, I have esoteric perception of this and also have been told of this phenomenon by those who after departing their body in a blaze of pure glory had to adjust to the initial shock of the transition and rapidly adjust their conceptions, their perception and their expectations. One guru even wanted this told to his disciples so they would not be shaken by what they found, but I would not do so as I did not wish to be part of that person's life in any way. I am not so keen to get involved in such controversial issues, especially when I am speaking with those who are convinced of what they read or hear from persons they accept as authorities.

I do not wish to discourage you or anyone from attaining the situation of your dreams, but I wish to modify those dreams to avoid disappointment. Let's look at it another way: if we have a clearer conception of what we are heading for, we will better prepare ourselves to optimize the situation when we get there. If we are somewhat dreamy about the destination (dare we say, overly romanticizing it) we tend to be a bit unprepared for the circumstances that manifest after our transition.

In your case, I feel you would be better off to continue to skip suggestive terminology and work towards transforming your consciousness to the ideal you have. This will probably assist you towards a smooth transition to the other side and empower you to rapidly take more effective steps towards your attainable goal in that realm. You will also be more satisfied with what you get, for you do not have expectations that exceed your capacity. Expectations are all right -- after all they are an essential part of our motivation -- but expectations in this life that exceed our evolutionary capacity lead to disappointment.

The focused development towards our goal should manifest throughout life. I know that it seems to be really focused when we are gradually nearing death and excluding all activity other than our preparation for it, but in many cases this later or last stage of evolution seems far more significant to us (or those around us) than it is when seen from a higher perspective. I don't mean this last sentence to be a critique against utilizing your remaining time to optimize your transition; rather, I mean it as an encouragement to not wait till that late stage, for the power of that stage is not as significant as we might think. I know there are those who were at the bedside of great personalities as they were dying, but no one can declare with certainty that they knew of the inner development or the post-transition situation of anyone. Therefore I suppose I am simply warning those who are overly confident of their destinations, and encouraging the generic development of spirituality and divinely harmonious consciousness throughout all stages of life.

Hari wrote:The focused development towards our goal should manifest throughout life...

I know there are those who were at the bedside of great personalities as they were dying, but no one can declare with certainty that they knew of the inner development or the post-transition situation of anyone. Therefore I suppose I am simply warning those who are overly confident of their destinations, and encouraging the generic development of spirituality and divinely harmonious consciousness throughout all stages of life.

One week ago on a sunny Sunday afternoon I was together with my wife Marina at the bedside of her dear mother, Margareta, as she lay dying. It was in the hospital in Iasi in Romania. One week before, in the middle of the night, we moved her there with an ambulance. Since a few month my wife and her father took care of her in their home. Due to an advanced stage of diabetes and liver disease, her body was almost imobile and in a very unhealthy condition. In this night she almost fell unconscious and we called the ambulance which came together with an emergency doctor. They imediatelly tested the blood and found out that the level of glycemia in her blood reached a life threatening level. After an injection with that substance she indeed within one minute or so reached her consciousness again and was communicating with us as if nothing happened. I travelled from Germany by bus two days before to visit her, my wife and her family.

The female physician of the emergency ambulance told us that the nourishment for the cells in the brain is this glycemia. If the level of this chemical substance reaches a critical level in the blood the brain starts to stop its functions. That reminded me of Krishna's words in the Bhagavad-gita (18.61), who states that the living entity is seated as on a mashine made of material energy.

The last wish of mother Margareta was to die at her home in her accustomed surroundings and we aranged already with the doctors of the hospital to take her home the next day. I remember the last words she spoke to me while being moved from the hospital room, she was staying since a few days, to the emergency room of the clinic, since her situation became over night very critical, I was holding her hands and she told me whispering "I am going home..." My father-in-law, Constantin, became this morning very restless, as if feeling the call of his beloved wife, and went accompanied by me, without beeing called by phone by anyone from the hospital, very early in the morning to the clinic.

Mother Margareta was a very pious woman. At the time she was more healthy I could often, at my visits to their home in Iasi, in the early morning listen to her praying to the Lord in her room, with folded hands staying on her knees before beautiful icons of Holy Mary and Jesus Christ. In the tradition of the Orthodox Christian faith she was devoted to, there are certain spiritual beliefs and practices mother Margareta was always very eager to follow. In the night after she died my father-in-law complaind to the Lord with tears in his eyes, before this icons in their room, lamenting why she had to die now in this way although she followed so many religious duties in her life. They knew each other since 60 years and were maried since 54 years. A very long time. To loose ones loved one 'better half', ones soul mate, after such a long time must be indeed a very traumatic experience.

The apparatus in the hospital connected to her body continued to show, although very slow, as if her heart would stil beat. The female doctor said this were the electrical impulses of the medical device, regulating the beating of the heart, she had since a few years in her body. The cardiac pacemaker continued to function due to the power of its battery sending electrical impulses delivered by electrodes contacting the heart muscles. But her heart had stopped beating...

Why am I writing all this? It is because I would like to ask you, dear Hari, if there might be a difference for the journey of the soul to depart from life at a place considered home, in the presence of loved ones, or to die in a place like a hospital where there might be also persons around, like doctors and nurses who seem to be, at least one could have that impression perhaps, not so much emotianally involved or affectionately connected with the dying person - who with a kind of helplessnes may consider in the situation of simply doing their job to the best of their abilities and knowledge?

You wrote above in regard to Sridhar Swami: "When he felt it was time to die, he went to that place where he felt most comfortable and safe and absorbed himself in the energy of Lord Caitanya."

Although there is no doubt a dying person will feel relatively greater comfort surrounded by familiar faces and places, I cannot say that dying in a hospital would seriously hinder a person from attaining the destination they have earned. After all, the divine beings that assist the transition from one life to the next are more aware than we of the circumstances within which we depart this world. Everything is always adjusted in the end.

However, when death takes place in a way that is extremely unpleasant, agitated, against our will or even our comprehension, the possibility of our consciousness being overly disoriented or distorted increases radically. This can create a period of confusion for the departed soul. But considering your specific question about your mother-in-law, I do not think that such conditions occur under normal circumstances for those who are aware that they are sick and dying in a hospital.

Since each person is unique and the circumstances of their death similarly unique, I cannot answer your question with a blanket statement.

Hari wrote:Although there is no doubt a dying person will feel relatively greater comfort surrounded by familiar faces and places, I cannot say that dying in a hospital would seriously hinder a person from attaining the destination they have earned. After all, the divine beings that assist the transition from one life to the next are more aware than we of the circumstances within which we depart this world. Everything is always adjusted in the end.

Dear Hari!
I thank you and appreciate your honest and sincere reply. You are mentioning "divine beings that assist the transition from one life to the next," who are they and is it possible for the soul to become aware of their presence after departing from the body?

I was reading today on the Internet about your longtime friend and path companion Jayapataka Swami who is since a few days in the hospital in Mumbai in a very critical health situation. Let us focus our good wishes, our inner healing energy and prayers to the Supreme for his recovery and personal well-being. Info website: www.victoryflag.org

I remember well the time at Gaura Purnima in 1985 I was visiting India, filming with my Super8 movie camera the Parikrama followed by thousands of people, you were leading together around Mayapur and Navadvip, telling us many interesting stories about the places where Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu performed his pastimes of boyhood and youth and started his sankirtana movement.

The scenes I was filming with my movie camera tend to resemble one in many ways at the descriptions, one can find nowadays published on the Web, about Sri Caitanya and his followers where one can read: "Following Lord Caitanya's chanting, all the devotees reproduced the same sound he chanted. In this way the Lord proceeded, leading the entire party on the strand roads by the bank of the Ganges. When the Lord came to his own ghata, or bathing place, he danced more and more. Then he proceeded to Madhai's ghata. In this way Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu, the Supreme Lord, who was known as Visvambhara, danced all over the banks of the Ganges. Then he proceeded to Barakona-ghata, then Nagariya-ghata, and, traveling through Ganganagara, reached Simuliya, a quarter at one end of the town. All these places surround Sri Mayapur."

The beings who assist one to depart from this life are either related to you, or are guides who assist you, or can be angels or others who are concerned about you. They care about you and help you make the transition. Definitely you are aware of them.