Harimedia Forum

Dear Hariji
Few weeks ago i just was wandering about dharma artha kama moksha
this different stages, or times of life.
I figured out that the way it was presented in ISCON time,
that first is coming Dharma then Artha then Kama then Moksha doesnt resonate with my understanding,and i find out that many commentators of vedic literature have another opinion.
I myself also figured out that more natural and proper that first coming Artha the education the sciles
of becoming economically strong and then Kama and then responsibility- Dharma and then Moksha,and Dharma at all doesnt mean religion or even spiritual practices but responsibility in general it can be responsibility in sake of family in sake of country and in sake of Gods and Suprim also.But not only responsibility in in sake of Gods and Supreme.
I think that it is natural that children’s just learning different skills then getting enjoyment then taking care for dependants and Gods and then MOksha.
Since when they are passing the first stages artha and kama and they are mature persons they realy able to take responsibility in sake others,otherwise how could little children’s take care of
others.And if they under the control of elders they are forced to chant mantras or pray or any kind of different activities it is not Dharma in real meaning of this ward since children’s because of there dependence not able to really take responsibility.
Althought i am not saying it is bad to teach them all that things.But it is not Dharma.
It is mainly Artha skills even in spiritual activites.And in general even in English the ward art is scils also.

And also if we analyze the different stages of life then educational time is more artha the houshold life is more kama and dharma and vanaprastha and sanyasa is Moksha .
And also since most of population doing things not because they think what is proper but doing things more because of natural forces {mainly the desire for enjoyment} ,let say it is much natural that parents thinking how to teach there children’s so that they will be able to become economically strong for be ready for hard life struggle and children’s also want to become strong and be capable to enjoy which means Kama and then when they enjoy they getting children’s and becoming more mature and detached and ready to take responsibility which means Dharma.
All this seems very natural no need to even preach about it.
So it is my understanding.
Please tell your opinion about this issue it is very interesting for me to hear what do you think about this issue.
Much love

For the sake of those who don't understand the meanings of the words you've used, let us define them. Dharma is usually defined as religiosity, however I would modify this to mean "the duties that are natural to one in life," or in other words, one's capacity and inclination to work. Artha refers to the act of economic development, or stated simply, earning money for one's livelihood. Kama is often thought of as sense gratification, but I would modify this to mean "attaining pleasurable experiences including those normally connected to interpersonal relations, the attainment of goals, and other activities related to feeling good." Moksa refers to liberating oneself from ignorance and the attainment of awareness of spirit including the goal of ascension into a spiritual realm.

Considering this, educating oneself in the duties specific to one's physical and mental capacities, including comprehending the available set of opportunities, seems to be the very first priority. Without knowing who you are and what you can accomplish in life, or even more importantly without recognizing your desires, capabilities, and capacities, one will not be able to engage efficiently in the process of maintaining one's family or any kind of economic development. I understand that many people engage in work without really being aware of their potential, but I don't think the advice given through the varnasrama system would tolerate allowing people to go through their lives in ignorance. The enlightened ideal of work is to engage in a work compatible with you as a person.

Therefore I would say the order in which these stages of life were presented makes sense. Obviously any proper educational system would attempt to understand the needs of the students and adapt the curriculum accordingly, but unfortunately this is not often the case and therefore stating that it must be done seems to be correct.

Your point about ,that in vedic culture the education in spiritual topices is the first
priority made me think more.
I agree with that .
So trying to understand all that i wrote to you and your answer i came to the conclusion that Dharma is first in the line in the meaning of priorityes and it doesnt depend on ashramas ,or stages of life,in other wards in any stage of life the priority is Dharma,and the most important part of Dharma is spiritual education,so it is the priority.
But then apearing more questions one can get realy spiritual education in Kama also since life eduacting more then anything.
Wath is real spiritual eduaction anyway,?
I am asking it since one can all life learn in his home or office books and realigions but the other can live life full of extrime expireanses and without teoreticaly knowing more then the first one realy become more educated.
And also if dharma artha kama moksa placed in the line of priorityes then why
artha should be more imprortant then moksa and kama and why moksha should be last.
Please tell your opinion

First of all, I do not think these four items are prioritized in a list that goes from less important to more important. They are all important in life. Therefore these are stages that people deal with. Understanding one's role or duty within society is always important. And all of it is an education. You learn how to live according to your particular qualities in the context of the ethic of being a responsible human being, you use that knowledge to become prosperous, you use that prosperity to enjoy, and when you become aware of your essence, you evolve further spiritually and embrace your spiritual being.

Neither did I say that an education in spiritual topics is first. I said that educating children according to their nature is the initial step. We have qualities and desires, capacities and potential. Education is meant to bring out these natural qualities and facilitate our using them in life by giving us the tools to accomplish those tasks or works that characterize us. In a society that is based in religiosity, this will naturally be done in a spiritual context to strengthen the morals and character of the individuals. It is a practical education centered in a spiritual ethic. If you strip away the cultural cloak within which all religion rests, you have a universal spiritual ethic that guides work.

Your questions are based on your understanding of the topic from scriptural sources and you are answering your own questions based on your conclusions attained through your having digested these topics. My comments are addressing the definitions of the words and the relevance of these concepts for all people at all times regardless of their spiritual beliefs.

Thanks
Today I also realized that there no question of priorityes.
Artha dharma kama moksa going trought our whole life.Sometime more some time less/
The question arrised when i read some coments to scriptures where this terms was puted in the priorites line it bevildered me since i also tryed to refer to this terms in there real meaning. In that coments i couldnt just figure out why childhood period of time should be more dharma.{maybe there are less artha and kama in that period.}Then again when one is in educational prosses for gaining welth is it artha or dharma,i can try to answer myself maybe it is both.
Anyway the point became much clearer.
Thank you

Your coments helped me a lot to realy figure out the subject
i also realized that that for people with different inclanations they are different prioritys.
For yogis and advanced spiritualists MOksa the priority and then Dharma then artha then Kama
For Intelectuals[Braminical people} and administrators{Ksatriyas} Dharma is priority then artha then Kama then Moksa ,or dhrama moksa artha kama
For buissness people Artha priority then Kama then dharma then Moksa,or artha
dhrma kama moksa
Anyway Dharma is main priority since evryone chousing his priorityes according to his nature it means dharma
That is why in different scriprures it is writen in defferent lines.Since they adress to different people.
Thanks again