Harimedia Forum

dear Hari!

I have weak understanding of the reason why the souls had transformed from spiritual world of happiness to the material world. I found several answers for them, and might be all of them are right. However, one of them, that is the most logic on my opinion, has a concrete contradictions with vedic sayings about the soul.

In more detail, I think that our mind is not developed enough to understand God, his personality. So, as our mind is the derivative of our soul, it reflects all characteristics of the soul. Thus, we loose the qualitative characteristics, which limit our perceptions on the level of soul, as the mind cannot exist as independent variable. And this contradicts with sayings, which I heard from vedic resources, that the soul is the pure and perfect part of the God.

I would be very appreciated, if you would express your opinion upon it. Till I have some order in my mind, every question brings a root of other questions like a snowball.

If souls come from a spiritual world where all is perfect and only less than perfect souls leave, there seems to be a contradiction. After all, if the place is perfect, why leave it? If we leave it because we are imperfect, then there is imperfection in the spiritual world. On the other hand, if it is part of the perfection of the spiritual world that some are allowed to leave, then one should not define the spiritual world as a place where no one leaves.

It is possible that only the spiritual world is perfect but not all the souls within it. It is also possible to consider that leaving the spiritual world may not be an imperfect act; rather, it fits within the overall scheme of things and thus the souls who do leave are not less perfect. The possibility to relocate to the 'material world' may even be encouraged when it is for the benefit of the individual. This would mean our present definition of 'perfection' is imperfect and the debate about the issue unnecessary. One could say that at any particular moment some souls are properly suited in the spiritual world and others require to be in the material world.

A second opinion states that the souls here in this world do not come from the spiritual world, but have always been outside of the spiritual world. One wonders why some souls were allowed to eternally reside in the spiritual world and some were condemned to the material? The God of this spiritual world seems to be whimsical, putting some souls here and some souls there. Why must the souls who are outside have to now work so hard to get inside while the ones already there enjoy? And can those who were shunted off to the place of suffering count on that same God to allow them into the spiritual clubhouse? After all, it was that God who shut them out in the first place. Was there a reason they were shut out or was it arbitrary? And once they are in, are they assured of their security regardless of any future happenstance in the spiritual world? After all, since they were once arbitrarily designated as material residents, what would keep the same unstoppable whimsical force from doing it again after they entered the spiritual realm?

If matter and its world is temporary and not eternal, then where were these souls before the material world existed? They had to be somewhere, so where was that place? Was it the spiritual world or do we have to come up with a third alternative, perhaps the non-manifest cosmic egg, but then where did that come from? Those who give this argument will not disagree that the spiritual energy is the source of all existence including matter. If the material energy is eternal, then it was never created and those within it are always there. If one says the material energy came from God at one point, then so did those souls who were within it and therefore ultimately all souls were once with God. Did they emanate from God? Was it then they entered into the material realm? Was there any choice in this? They were merely atomic particles within God whereas the eternally liberated were within their eternal abode in the spiritual world. If the emanated were atoms, they had little choice where they were headed when they streamed forth from this massive source of all energy, and thus it is not their choice to be here in this world. This means ultimately, they were put here by God. If the material world is not eternal, then they either fell at one point somewhere in time from the spiritual world or they emanated from the body of God. Both ideas negate the idea that one is eternally in the material realm.

If the material world is eternal and the souls who are there were not put there by a whimsical God, then it must be the nature of the souls within it to be eternally in the material realm. If it is their nature, then what is it about these souls that differentiates them from the other souls whose nature it is to be in the spiritual realm? They could not have attained that nature if they always had it. This means there really are two types of souls and this makes one wonder how one transforms from one type to the other, or, how despite their being two types the main differentiation between the types -- residency in a particular realm -- can be negated by practice. Considering this, in essence there are not two general groups of souls, but only one group that has the choice to transform their basic character, and thus their places of residence, at will.

The idea that there are essentially two types of souls does not explain how this fundamental difference exists. Since they are eternal and these categories of differentiation are also existing timelessly (until they seemingly change forever), they were not created that way, they always were that way.

Can we reasonably accept this or is there another way to look at it? Considering the all-encompassing perfection of the Supreme and the matrix within which we all exist, it makes more sense that each and every soul, regardless of their situation, is perfect and complete exactly where they are. How they move through their lives is up to them and their attaining alternate realms depends on their tuning to that dimension's frequency when they intensely want to. Due to the fundamental and massive frequency shift required to relocate to the other dimension, such an act requires an enormous effort of will.

One could describe the dimensions in two general categories, one as a place where there are challenges and one as a place without challenges. Within each category there is a wide variety of options and lifestyles. One realm is harder, one is easy. When groups of individuals unite in an extremely compatible spiritual manner within the world of challenges, the hard realm can become easy. Uniting in this way is one of the challenges we can choose to face.

There are problems with other models of the spiritual realm. Those who profess we 'fell' from a perfect spiritual world filled with pure, unalloyed spiritual beings, are also accepting that imperfection can either exist or suddenly appear in the spiritual realm. Is it that a perfect person who is properly situated within the spiritual wholeness of pure being suddenly gets the idea to do something impure and falls? Consider the difficulty in understanding the development of these imperfect and impure thoughts that catalyzed the fall. At what point does the idea of rebellion crystalize enough to provoke the purity thought police to terminate your spiritual world passport and deport you? Does it come when you wake up one morning and say, "That's it, I'm through!", or is it when you have the first thought of doing the unthinkable as in "Gee, am I really meant to be here with all these perfect beings?" Could it be that 16 bad thoughts are the limit and when that limit is reached you are sent packing? Or is it understood by all that we no longer belong there and thus we move on?

There are problems with the concept that one in the spiritual realm is forced to leave due to unexpectedly becoming incompatible with the place. If I am in the spiritual realm and have no proper conception of the 'material realm,' how can I make a fully informed choice to leave the spiritual world? Would I know there was such a choice available? And if I knew it, would the choice hover in my consciousness somehow, or even, would it be revived when someone I knew left the spiritual world? Would I speak with or have contact with those who were in the process of leaving or was the departure so rapid that there was no way to communicate or reason with the person? Was it a mass departure that happened so long ago that it is now forgotten, if forgetfulness is possible for the perfect beings? Am I informed of the options available to me in the spiritual world? Would I be informed of the consequences of my leaving that realm and 'entangling' in the arms of the 'material beast' or does it all happen so fast that there is no time to consider the results of my desire flare?

In the scriptural idea, we leave the kingdom of God due to lusty desire. How such nasty desire can arise when one is situated in the realm of perfection is not discussed. It might be said that some are always perfect and never become imperfect whereas some are capable of being imperfect. However, are those with such 'imperfect' capacity aware of it; are they told about it and taught to watch out for those evil thoughts? Are they warned that after four such thoughts (or whatever) they will be deported? If not, then the eviction is without cause, and if so, what causes such perfect persons to disregard such warnings? If lust within the perfect soul arises suddenly, its potential is inherent within the nature of the soul. Or are there some souls who have a different potential than others? If all have similar potential, what guarantees that it will never manifest in those who have never left and what guarantees it will not manifest again in those who have returned? If they are reluctant to allow the desire to manifest, this means they are in a constant state of control due to their memory of the consequences of allowing their potential to even slightly manifest. Does this constant vigilance not cause them a disturbance? If they have such vigilance they are superior to those who have never fallen! There are now individuals who have the potential for lust but who never use it due to superior knowledge and experience. Those who have never fallen and who have the potential to do so do not have the upgraded features of those who have learned their lessons. My goodness! They are at risk! If they are not at risk then their potential is indeed different and there are indeed different kinds of souls. If there are different kinds of souls then those who leave are simply following their natures. Following their potential cannot be considered a fault.

In other scenarios, some wish to attain another position, such as a competitor to the Supreme. They must be dissatisfied in a world where all are always satisfied. If the fall of others is caused by their curiosity to discover something new and therefore expand themselves, then the spiritual realm is a rigid place where one cannot question. It is interesting how our own human conceptions color our understanding of the spiritual realm.

These are not easy questions to answer; therefore one finds shelter in ideas such as the mind's incapacity to understand inconceivable things that should not be debated. Thus the subject is swept under the rug, along with other problematic discussions, as one attempts to continue the process of advancement within the confines of culturally based, hierarchical religious traditions. Nagging doubts have to be put aside as questions such as these can only be definitively answered at liberation.

A wise person said that living beings enter into challenging environments to reinvent themselves to expand their energy, power, and capacity as part of an eternal evolutionary process of growth. Although I am a spiritual being who can remain within my spiritual essence and commune with others in the spiritual environment, I yearn to expand and stretch my spiritual wings. As this is hard to do in a spiritual realm where everything works smoothly and my desires always manifest, I decide to enter into a challenging realm to develop my capacities. There I can conquer challenges and grow through these experiences. When I am satisfied with my level of evolution, I will again rest in my spiritual essence in that spiritual realm I have created together with my beloved Deities. I may repeat this process as I choose.

In this explanation there is a choice; the choice leads to expansion; growth ensues, and there is a happy ending. At no point are we left without support, love, or the chance to do the right thing and ultimately attain all we desire. We chose to enter the state of being challenged and we choose to return to the state of satisfaction with our being. All doors are always open.

When I am immersed in my spiritual essence with the greatest possible spiritual awareness and I visualize my deepest desires to connect to my Lords and my Lords reciprocate, then our mutual desire creates a perfect union. Souls so connected may wander as they like to wherever they like in whatever realm they like. This is the flow of spiritual energy.

Now let us imagine the scenario where two persons have a relationship. The first is extremely powerful and capable while the second does not feel equal to the relationship and desires to expand for the sake of the other. [A mundane example would be where the woman would be intelligent and poetic and the man would be gross and illiterate. The man could desire to go to school to become qualified enough to give poetic pleasure to the woman.] If the soul wishes to evolve to a level more compatible with the beloved Lord and their spiritual group, the soul will be highly motivated to expand its personal spiritual power. Thus the entrance into the arena where growth takes place is a choice made with the mutual consent of all concerned. We are never left alone as our spiritual group always maintains watch over us as we traverse our developmental path. Indeed, that realm is always with us as another dimension to our lives. We may tap into that dimension at will, if we know the art. Our understanding of when we have completed our task of expansion will precipitate our return to that spiritual dimension fully immersed in our re-established spiritual relationships. When we thus return, our relationships deepen proportionately to our growth. In this manner, our spiritual realm evolves.

To summarize: There is a spiritual realm [defined according to our inclinations] where there are beings who have found their perfect communion with God and wish to maintain this relationship. If and when the living being, God, and all associates feel it would be in the best interests of the soul to evolve further, the soul relocates to this world of challenging experiences. When ready, the soul returns.

This is an alternative way to help us understand scriptural ideals better.