Harimedia Forum

Love and Responsibility

My understanding of love is inextricably connected with concept of responsibility.
The love can not exist without responsibility. The love without responsibility is no more than egoistic substitute.
The love can not be bottled up, because similarly as devotional service, it is our constitutional and inseparable spiritual heritage, it is our nature.
The love is perfection of relation. In most pure state, the love similarly as devotional service is unmotivated and uninterrupted.
The love obligates and bestows the deepest sense for our life. The love is universal and intuitive path of self realization for everybody not only in all authorized religions of this world but especially in reality of our life.

Dear Harikeś, the love without responsibility is egoistic.
Big words about love not supported by responsibility are empty words, so more they are sophisticated form of exploitations of others.
Declarations of love without corresponding responsibility are not only deception but bhogus philosophy too.
The egoistic love has variety of shades and even in most degraded platforms of consciousness (the animals bodies, where the free will is limited to minimum), there is corresponding responsibility (for example for progeny) enforced by severe laws of material nature called an instinct.
I know, that you are avoiding as much as possible this topics of your own responsibility. So more it is very difficult to find this subject matter in your present lectures contrary to your ISKCON lectures, but I hope you are aware that you will not escape from it and sooner or later you will be forced to confront it.
If not now, it will happen in hour of your death when you will stand in face of God.

Your avoiding the responsibility indicates your immaturity in this matter and it is characteristic standard for most present and past leaders of ISKCON. Nobody from them are interested in responsibility and nobody from them are able for even smallest apology for their mistakes, which cause sometimes very heavy problems in lives of their disciples, from which they require absolute surrendering.
When the throat is too jammed by imagination of false ego about own uniqueness, the simple world "sorry" is too difficult for aware apology.

Similarly, you also were requested few times on the forum "Good Old Days Discussions", by few persons for such simple kind of apology for your previous presenting yourself "As Good As God", which causes their sufferings and huge problems in their lives, but you were to them in matter of your responsibility stone deaf.
I was deeply disgusted by reading such kinds of your answers to them where everybody was presented as guilty, but not you. You were victim, you were only good man and others were bad man with bad motivations to challenge and offend you.

***

Maybe you are lost, maybe you need more time, don’t worry, I am waiting for your more mature attitude.
If you sincere person, God will help you.

You waste my time and perhaps the time of others. I have spent much time answering you. You do not accept my answers. Fine. I do not have to waste more time with you for I do not wish to as it has no purpose. You are fixated on some point and cannot move forward in your life. I am sorry for that but I am not the one to help you. Neither will I agree to your demands nor be manipulated by you.

You say love is connected with responsibility. I do not agree with the way you mean that. I say love acts for the benefit of all, even if not all understand it all the time. Those who understand it, understand it, and those who do not, do not. Later they may or may not. In your case I feel you might only understand next lifetime. I hope not, but at the rate you insist on being fixed in your way of seeing things, I doubt it.

And certainly we can agree to disagree without having to determine who is right or wrong. But understand it well that I do not agree with your way of looking at this, although I respect your right to look at anything as you wish.

Therefore there is no use of your continually harping on these points over again. Please respect my desire to not discuss this further with you.

Hari wrote:You say love is connected with responsibility. I do not agree with the way you mean that.

Harikeś, your acts are giving evidence of your mentality.

HOW MANY MORE PEOPLES YOU WILL HARM IN YOUR LIFE?

HOW MANY MORE PEOPLES YOU WILL HARM IN YOUR LIFE?

That may sound funny, but I guess that may be somehow valid for you and your understanding of things. I really don´t get it what you really whant. . I mean am I just so stupid or are we living here in two different worlds with our understranding of things? I would say try to consider the term love also from the platform of the Supreme Lord. You may be surprised of the awareness you may get from doing so, if you are of course also open enough for becoming aware of His understanding of how to use rightly the term of love or way of leting us know or feel that love in His relationships with us and others as well.

harsi wrote:HOW MANY MORE PEOPLES YOU WILL HARM IN YOUR LIFE?

That may sound funny, but I guess that may be somehow valid for you and your understanding of things. I really don´t get it what you really whant. . I mean am I just so stupid or are we living here in two different worlds with our understranding of things? I would say try to consider the term love also from the platform of the Supreme Lord. You may be surprised of the awareness you may get from doing so, if you are of course also open enough for becoming aware of His understanding of how to use rightly the term of love or way of leting us know or feel that love in His relationships with us and others as well.

CC. Adi Lila Charter 1, Spiritual Masters
Commentary by Srila Prabhupada to Text 46, (sorry for my incompetent translation):
"Spiritual master is also called acarya, that is transcendental professor of spiritual knowledge. The duties of acarya are explained in Manu Samhita (2.1.140), that bona fide spiritual master is accepting responsibility for their disciples, he is teaching them vedic knowledge with all intricacies and he is giving them second birth."

CC. Adi Lila Charter 1, Spiritual Masters
Commentary by Srila Prabhupada:
"Supreme Personalities of Godhead, being full and free from all problems, can heartily take care of His devotees. He cares of them how to rise them and protect all of them, who are taking the shelter of His feet. The same responsibility is entrusted to spiritual master".

Śrimad Bhagavatam Canto 1, Creation
Chapter 9 - Living of Bhismadeva in presence of Kryszna
Commentary by Srila Prabhupada:
"The father, spiritual master and king can not afford for irresponsibility in directing their subordinates on the path of ultimate liberation from birth, death, diseases and old age."

***

Dear Harsi,
I require nothing and nothing demand from Harikeś.
As spiritual master, he failed me and thousands of his disciples. For some of them there was no problem and for some of them there was problem, bigger or smaller (for example two his initiated disciples from Poland made suicide). Is it sound funny?
What I would like to see in Harikeś attitude is scintilla of humility, that he is sincerely able for aware apology. Simple but magic world "sorry" with sincerity and humility is personally enough for me.
Is this too difficult for a person, whom Śrila Prabhupada personally entrusted His faith and who for us was representing the Supreme Personalities of Godhead?
Are those kind of humility and self-criticism really too difficult for him?

Maybe you will not believe me but I have a lot of positive feelings to Harikeś and I wish him (and you too) all the best in life.
I perfectly understand that for some things is too late for correction nor reverse the past events but I believe than for apology there is always the room.
If Harikeś will be able to learn how to sincerely apologize, this distressing discussion will naturally come to end, at least for my side. There is no other way to do it than this simple and magic method.

Is it too much for him?

I would not base my understanding of things so much only on what Srila Prabhupada had to say, rather try to come also somehow to the right conclusion about this things myself. As you may have read in one of my last comment here, Prabupada "produced" by the usage of his words also the spiritual reality of things, to fit to that what his own "particular" understanding was, and to fit also to the "spiritual" goals he wanted to become fulfilled in his life. If that may have been also the understanding of the Supreme Lord, who knows? Better to come also by ones own endeavor to some right conclusion, instead of using just that of someone else, whomever that may happen to be, would I say. Does not Krsna says in the Bhagavad-gita that it is somehow dangerous to just follow that of someone elses path? It is really sad that somehow no-one of you there in Poland could help this two persons, worth of compasion you mentioned in your comment, to understand this important point also, and act acordingly to find again new hope and a new perspective in their life. Life is always worth living, and the Supreme Lord, Krsna is always with us in the heart of our hearts.

And please greet me also my good friend Kisora Kisori there in Wrozlaw or wherever you may happen to be. You know him for sure, we where ones distributing books together a few month on the streets in Germany.
Do you know his e-mail addres maybe?

I think it’s impossible to bring sleeping soul to somewhere. The only thing is gradually help him take responsibility for his self and help him by gradually becoming more and more conscious go farther faster and faster. And Hari did and doing that. He did that when he left that organized movement of going to somewhere! And is doing it now trying to waken in us personal responsibility of our life. And it’s not appropriate to say, but he was leading us in that movement. Just consider if he would continue leading us to nowhere. Thanks him for he understood and helping us waken ourselves.

And today is his birthday and I would like to thank him for what he is doing for all of us, even if sometimes we don’t understand but after a bit wakening we starts to see the good he is doing to us here.

Gaura wrote:And today is his birthday and I would like to thank him for what he is doing for all of us, even if sometimes we don’t understand but after a bit wakening we starts to see the good he is doing to us here.

Dear Harikeś,

Today is your birthday and I also feel in my heart to wish you all the best.
I see that you have very good, sincere and faithful friends aurond.
It is very favourable and valuable thing.
Happy birthday to you.

DEar Hari
I am very sorry to read all this mad texts writen by some realy mentaly seek person{ i mean this guy Aitereya or how else he is called}.

His example realy showing how complitly seek one can become being in the sect such a long time.
Not only seek but full of anger and without any moral priciples.
This people think that morality is just not eat somthing and so on,
they dont underastand that more important wath they have in there hearth wath they are saying or writing.
This people have no any bravity to accept that all problems they have
is because of themselfs.
Actualy no one can blame anybody for anything it is even said in
Srimad Bhagavatam but if they want to blame then they should have bravity to blame Prabhupad since he made such a sectarian group and teaching.
I personaly feel very nice with Prabhupad since he did his best
as could and as he understood but i can feel it since i dont depend on him and i am not in his sect and i understand that he has rights as well to make many mistakes. By the way in that period of time wath he was saying helps many people, and i am thankfull to him also for that.
Sometimes this mistakes making crazy the ones who taking all his wards very seriously fanaticaly.
As well it happened when ones becoming fanatic with muslim texts and
cristian texts and Jewish texts as well.

The people who are influensed by ortodoxns religions the history showing
how many crasy things can do,they even killed the Crist.
It seem that ortodox religions making people dissatisfyed and full of anger,that is why i am questioning have they anything do with God.

Uctually i am so much thanking you for the step you did in 1998.

Iwas a real seeker of truth before ISCON i sacrifised 25 years of my life
for ISCON but i lost my real spiritual impuls there.

And it was because of many reasons the main one that i lost my spiritual
freedom and responsibility.
The other reason that i was forbiden to think to question to investigate
without any restriction.
The other reason was that i was to accept so called authoritys
just because they was appointed as authorotys without any real spiritual
qualification.Altought i realy felt that even i was much more qualifyed then many of them.I mean the so called gurus.
{ctualy you was the only one at least for me who was realy qualufied person and even now when i am complitly independent i am continuing to feel your real spiritual qualification.}


The so called gurus who are trying all there best to show others there
"superhuman detouched nature" for getting more and more deciples
but who are just cheating people about themselfs and not at all better
tthat any of ordinary man {in many respects even warst} actualy was
looking for fame and money the things that they realy trying to deny.
The spirituality there is just blind following some ruls and memorising
some verses and giving fancy speaches like politicions are doing.
No real inside wark. How it can be any inside wark if one is not free,
if one doing wath he said to do not wath he want himself?

NOw i understand that all this have nothing to do with real teachings of
Lord Chaitanya. He himself was against ortodox sects.


Thank you very much for everything you are doing ecspesialy that
you get bravity to say the truth gave us real possibility to be free
and became responsible for our own spiritual and so called
material aspect of life,and free ourselfs from such an inresponsible sectarian group of people.

I am amaising how anyone can blame you for anything,even
ISCON should be thankfull to you forever {if they will be in such a period of time} you did for them more then all there gurus all together.

kamalamala wrote: The spirituality there is just blind following some ruls and memorizing
some verses and giving fancy speaches like politicians are doing.
No real inside work. How it can be any inside work if one is not free,
if one is doing what one is said to do, not what he wants himself?

Still the same old Kamalamala, powerfull, strong in his expressions, and also a very honest and most devoted soul who takes into consideration the good of all. I greet you with all my heart. Its indeed not so good to wake up a "sleeping" giant, would I say... . Do you remember the old days on COM now renamed as Pamho? Every moment I thought, when will he, with his sharp arrows of his words "shoot" again, into one of the various, at that time free and not moderated discussion conferences, on this for outsiders of that society closed discussion forum, where until than, there was a somehow very smooth, if any at all, discussion going on, among very few persons, until you entered the stage in your kind manner hard to be imitated. Its nice to meet you here again. You mentioned a very important point, would I say, which as one is also used in your comments, can incite one also to think, and I guess I am not the only one, who reflects upon what you just wrote.

Maybe it is truth, that I am crazy man, because maybe I have not right to know on this side of life the answers on my questions repeatedly asked to person, whom I was loving by my whole heart and in whom as representation of Same God, I was unlimitedly trusting through a dozen or so years heavy devotional service of sankirtan on the streets of the cities of the world.

Maybe it is truth, that all those years of completely dedication for desires of my spiritual master and my sacrifices much more beyond the possibility both my psyche and my diseased body are useless, since my spiritual master reversed to me and to ideas, by which he was burning everyday my longing for Krsna heart.

So, maybe I have right to be crazy and with dignity to left this space of my life in order to find the answers on the other side of existence, where there are not more illusions, where my motivation would be properly understood, where I would not be offended in my sincerity nor judged for manipulations and bad intentions and where I would be ultimately cured from naivety!

Auttareya wrote:Maybe it is truth, that I am crazy...

Aren`t we all somehow "crazy"... for Love, Love supreme and its Supreme goal and place of shelter, known to us all...?
and not only this One... http://www.sing365.com/music/lyric.nsf/ ... 3100089465

Dear friend

If you realy love somebody how can you treath him in such a way,how can you speak so harshly and unrespectfully to him without even trying to understand wath he is saying and why he is saying?

Iam wandering wath hapenes with all this people who was so devoted
to Hari {as they said} and suddenlycomplitly lost there possibility to
understand Him,i guess they all was complitly brainwashe by the most
egoistic and moralless slaveholders, so called GBC memebers and so called gurus.

The real spirituality is not in any organisation it is life itself and your
personal inside warld.The sects and so called devotional service cannot help one.

If one doing something because he decided it to do then he will not
blame anybody,but if one doing something because others forsed him to do in any ways then he have slave mentality and will blame others.

I was doing not less then you and maybe much more.
Iwas in the jail for the ISCON some years,and ISCON was never thanks me for it but still i dont blame anybody for anything since it was my
decicion to do all that i did and i am happy and gratfull to Lord for it.
Since in reality i wasnt doing things for anybody i was doing all that for my personal spiritual grow.

Can you understand that Hari did real heroic thing he help us to
become ourselfs,and the fact that he is allowing people to even
offend him in his public web site making him more glorius but not ones
who are like cawerd hide himself after the computer desk and
writing so many crazy things to one whom they delclare they love so much.
Without one becom himself, the one who are not affraid to make his own decicions and own rewes and own mistakes,it is complitly imposible to get the taste of real spirituality,the so called spirituality wich is declared in many sects wich is iforsible full of fear is only harming people and geting them nowhere.

Even Lord Krsna told Arjuna that he heard evrything and he have right do do wathever he want.
And also he told that one should give up all religions [sects also }
and surreneder to God .

Dear Harshi

Thank you for your memori of that times.
It was realy funny and wery plesurable time for me at first i was shoked
with the atitude of that people {GBC and gurus} but when i understood with whom i realy dealing it became real fun.

kamalamala wrote:Dear friend
If you realy love somebody how can you treath him in such a way,how can you speak so harshly and unrespectfully to him without even trying to understand wath he is saying and why he is saying?

I understand Harikeś quit good, at least a little more than you can image.
So more I am thankful to him, because by his decision of living ISKCON he also saved me from - as you aptly called - "the jail of Iskcon".
But from other side I am also thankful to God for the time spent in ISKCON in his and other devotees association. It is maybe most important time for me in my life. By this I could associate with the people in hearts of whose was burning the same fire of strong desires for the spiritual elevation as in my heart. Thanks to it, I was also infected by this kind of emotions even in situation of all aberrations, which is digesting this movement from inside in present time. I am maybe contaminated by such influences too.

Same situation is now, here. But now there is also time, than I am sometimes irritated, when there is no room for answering my important questions to Harikeś, which in my feelings of spirituality are keyword for the same core of my existence in present situation. Of course, my irritation is a source of my harsh words. In my private correspondence with Harikeś, there are also many signs of his irritations and also there are many harshly words directed to me. Certainly in Iskcon I would never dare to be irritated in face of my spiritual master, but now there is another situation.

So you see that nothing is perfectly unequivocal in emotions of our hearts. It is because we are different persons as individual entities. As you see everybody from us are different. Harsi is very friendly and soft in his words, Gaura is very careful to not distress others, Janus is a very wise person and you as me are straightforwardly in expressing your feelings. Maybe because of this your quality you gave me as a first person the opportunity to speak about the reasons of my behavior.

I respect of all you because all of you are unique reservoir of specific expression of feelings and emotions.
And one more point is that we are all conditioned living entities and maybe therefore we too often think that more things dividing us then uniting.

kamalamala wrote:Iam wandering wath hapenes with all this people who was so devoted
to Hari {as they said} and suddenlycomplitly lost there possibility to
understand Him,i guess they all was complitly brainwashe by the most
egoistic and moralless slaveholders, so called GBC memebers and so called gurus.

Yes, I agree. Maybe it is because all of us we are deeper under material influences than we can image.

kamalamala wrote:The real spirituality is not in any organisation it is life itself and your
personal inside warld.The sects and so called devotional service cannot help one.

Yes, I agree one more with you. I was forced to realize this truth in my heart very strongly.

kamalamala wrote:If one doing something because he decided it to do then he will not
blame anybody, but if one doing something because others forsed him to do in any ways then he have slave mentality and will blame others.

Certainly you are right, but there are varieties of emotions and sometimes such strange moods to normal understanding of love are possible even in hearts of great devotees in specific situations. For example on the battle of Kuruksetra devotees of Krsna were on both fighting sides and they were killing each other.

Our situation is also very specific.

kamalamala wrote:I was doing not less then you and maybe much more.
Iwas in the jail for the ISCON some years,and ISCON was never thanks me for it but still i dont blame anybody for anything since it was my
decicion to do all that i did and i am happy and gratfull to Lord for it.
Since in reality i wasnt doing things for anybody i was doing all that for my personal spiritual grow.

One more you are right. Your reaction is that, my reaction is another. It seemed that I lose my way and I am not enough understanding my spiritual master and he is not enough understanding me.
There are also so many others devotees who have their own understandings, sometimes in positive or negative manners.
Different persons, different reactions.

kamalamala wrote:Can you understand that Hari did real heroic thing he help us to
become ourselfs,and the fact that he is allowing people to even
offend him in his public web site making him more glorius but not ones
who are like cawerd hide himself after the computer desk and
writing so many crazy things to one whom they delclare they love so much.
Without one becom himself, the one who are not affraid to make his own decicions and own rewes and own mistakes,it is complitly imposible to get the taste of real spirituality,the so called spirituality wich is declared in many sects wich is iforsible full of fear is only harming people and geting them nowhere.

I am not coward man. Before Harimedia site was opened, I was planning to go to USA to meet personally Harikeś and discus with him all the points in confidence, which I later asked him on this forum and in our private correspondence. Maybe such kind of our conservation would be in completely another mood than this now via imperfection of internet.
I was talking about my idea of journey to Śri Visnupada with Śriman Kulapavana Prabhu, who for this reason offered me stay in his house and locomotion on time of my discussion with Harikeś. Almost in same time when I was looking for some sponsors for my journey, the Harimedia site was opened and I started here to ask my questions.
Please try to understand that I am trying to express my feelings, doubts and anxieties in foreign language and it is also (beyond my spiritual blindness) one of causes of this great and painful for both sides misunderstanding.
I am using two kinds of dictionaries, but still I can properly express myself only in my mother language.

kamalamala wrote:Even Lord Krsna told Arjuna that he heard evrything and he have right do do wathever he want.
And also he told that one should give up all religions [sects also }
and surreneder to God .

Yes, that is correct. Krsna also told Arjuna, that He can repeat His message one more from beginning if would be such misunderstandings of His words.
Same I was trying to do it but all my efforts in this direction were one by one wrongly understood.