Harimedia Forum

Dear Hari, who are you for me in spiritual sense?

Who I am for you depends quite a lot on who you are. If you are well aware of who you are, you will also be aware of who others are in relation to you. Although this sounds obvious, it is often not understood.

If you were to ask me, "How would you define yourself in relation to what you are doing with this site and your broadcasts?" I would be better able to answer. So I shall reply to this question.

I am an independent person who wishes to be of service to others. I do this because I like to do it and I feel that it has a good effect. I have some understanding, knowledge, realizations and experiences that I know how to share with others. I enjoy sharing these with others when others enjoy receiving what I give. In one sense you could call me a teacher, but I would rather see my role as assisting you to come to your highest potential by giving you tools that you can use to maximize your evolution.

Thus, I am at your service to the degree I am able and willing.

How you relate to me is entirely up to you. There are no pre-existing definitions to rely on. Previously you felt comfortable with accepting with great faith the definitions and social interactions given in some books. These definitions digested all the major components in the relationship. There were many assumptions made and many expectations. These definitions no longer are valid in relation to me.

Whether what I do is spiritually relevant to you or not is something you will have to examine through your personal experiences if you wish to do so.

Now it is up to you to create, maintain, break or forget the relationship based on your feelings and desires alone. I have no demands or expectations from you. I will simply offer what I have as it is. You may accept it or not as you like. The responsibility of answering this question lies solely with you. I replied to help you make that choice.

Dear Hari,

You didn’t give me answer on my question. You have given your answer on your own question:

Hari wrote:How would you define yourself in relation to what you are doing with this site and your broadcasts?

This is not my question, this is your question. Although your answer on your own question is interesting, but still it is not answer on my question.

Therefore I shall explain my original question little deeper:
What is your present understanding of your identity in connection with being in the past my spiritual master? How would you define yourself in relation to fact, that you left Iskcon without event smallest word of explanation to yours disciples as for example me?

And in this mood I am asking you after once second:

Dear Hari, who are you for me in spiritual sense?

As I said, I would answer my question, not yours. As your question was vague, how could I properly answer it? Now that you have clarified your question, I can address it better.

I disagree that I did not give any explanation for leaving ISKCON. I gave many explanations. Those that were posted to COM (or pamho) were rejected as my account was terminated by those who control it. Therefore I had no means to communicate directly with those in ISKCON. I did try but was unable. So calm down in your tone, please...

After I left, I gave many talks, interviews, and lectures which were recorded and which were and are available. In the first year I addressed directly the reasons for my leaving ISKCON in extreme detail. I also gave interviews to ISKCON representatives who recorded them but then buried them. Your not hearing from me was not due to my not speaking but rather due to blocks put up by others between you and me. ISKCON felt that I was threatening their stability, so they chose to protect themselves by blocking off my communications. This is normal for groups in such circumstances and I do not blame them for it. But it lamentably did cause confusion and aggravation for those longing for some understanding.

My web site, harimedia.com, offered many explanations of my departure, but after five years I decided that this was old history and removed them.
Those who were interested and internet savvy enough to find out, did so. I am sorry you did not get the information you wanted.

I will give you an answer that perhaps you might find more relevant. I do not like having to repeat this again at this late date, but since you asked and obviously consider this important, I shall reply concisely.

I already explained what I am. Here is what I am not. I am not a member of ISKCON or any group. I am not a guru, or spiritual master, and neither do I have or want followers. I do not proclaim allegiance to anyone or anything. None of these statements in this paragraph should lead you to make any further conclusions about my personal spirituality for that is quite separate from ISKCON.

Although this might sound shocking, I have a good reason why I feel like this. I do not think it is good for you or me that I take this role. I think it is better for you to learn on your own how to connect to yourself and the Supreme. I have discussed this in great detail in hundreds of lectures and do not avoid offering my help to anyone who wants to utilize it. It is not good for me to be in the role [of guru] as it is unnatural, uncomfortable, overly stressful, and not very productive in a broader sense of the word. I feel I can contribute to people's lives and be of service to Their Lordships in a simpler way. I feel that I can do something better for people from my present position of freedom.

Let's address your question in another way. Was I important to you as your spiritual master because I was in ISKCON, and a follower of Prabhupada and thus his representative, or was I important to you as a person? I know that nothing is black and white and that things are usually mixed together. If you consider most important my affiliation with ISKCON, then you should naturally have little to do with me in my present life. If you consider or considered me as a person more important, then you could contemplate building a different relationship with me now.

My original answer did address your question, but perhaps not in the way you expected it to. But let me tell you something personal that has nothing to do with ISKCON or positions or right or wrong.

I love devotees very deeply, even those who deride me, consider me a rascal, or even disciples who rejected me (also as a person) because I did not live up to their expectations. For me, the most important part of life is the loving relations between us. I do not consider important the formalities, the rituals, rules, structures, politics, economics, rivalries or whatever, that naturally occur within organized groups of religionists or spiritualists. All I care about is the loving relations we can have as people. Because of this I have shifted my experiences towards people and not things.

I feel the pain in your letter and I am truly sorry. In one sense nothing I can say can make up for the pain I caused you and others. However, I shall try to do my best to be of service to you in a way that I believe can help you. It is up to you to decide if you like that. Regardless of the philosophy behind our interactions, I pray that my love for you will manifest in my dealings with you, even if only to be a friend in the distance.

I hope this helps, Auttareyaji. Much love to you...

As I said, I would answer my question, not yours. As your question was vague, how could I properly answer it? Now that you have clarified your question, I can address it better.

That is good point. Deeper clarification.
If I clarify my question enough deeply, you would be able answer me more sufficiently. But if one who is answering knows very well one who is questioning, for proper answer he doesn’t need deeper verbal explanation, because he knows what is happening in heart of this person. He knows him and his moods, because he is in contact with his mental and emotional suit. This phenomena works between two persons on similarity as joint dishes. It often happened between parents and child, between twins and lovers, and between spiritual master and his disciple. In this last example, it is based on gravity of their mutual responsibility made in presence of God.

But I am not sure, that you remember me, because during those 17 years of my trying to be your disciple, we were talking maybe two times and no more than 20 minutes total. Do you know me? Do you remember me, my face, do you know what I like and what I don’t like as a person? I have doubt. Sorry. I have doubt event whether you would be able to recognize me on the street. But now you talking that you love me. What do you meant? What kind of love are you talking about? Is it same as your love to ants, trees, birds, other people, etc.?

If I am looking on you, I am looking on you only through prism of our broken past spiritual relation, but in present moment I am not sure even about a quality of this spirituality.

If you really want to help me as you proclaim and really want to express your so called love, please deeply put into my heart answer on my question:
Have you being ever my spiritual master in connection to required qualification explained in śastra? Are you tattva,darsinaha? If yes can you proof it, if not why did you do it to me? Same question I have gave you in my private letter to you, in closed time to your departure from Iskcon, but you never gave me any answer. I can understand it because of your problems with health in that painful time, but now, when it seemed you open to talk, I need your personal answer on my personal case in personal manner to me.

My intention is not to give you any pain, I have deep respect to you, but please try to understand me and my needs to clarify my life, because I deeply in my heart feel that in this moment it is very important for me.

And last point is, that not only you are not know me, but I don’t know you, too. I don’t know you as a person. I don’t know you who where acting as my spiritual master in most important period of my life.
What I know about you is only my imaginations and this is sad and not healthy.

If I can make a comment:

Hariji, quite a few of your former disciples do not quite understand the deeper meaning and reasons for your departure from Iskcon. They know the external events of this departure, to which they attach typical explanations - and for most, these explanations are satisfactory. But not for all. Some feel that there is a lot more to this story, and perhaps a much deeper lesson for them as well. External events often have reasons on several levels, and there are usually several correct ways of understanding them as well.

Even though I had a somewhat more sane and Vedic concept of the guru than most of my fellow Iskcon members, I was still forced to re-evaluate my beliefs and concepts in this area. I also realized, how much of my spiritual strength was actually "borrowed" over the years, and how deep my debt was...

Anyway, we all moved on in different ways since then. Some have managed to put it all behind, yet - for quite a few - there is this splinter, deep in their heart, that will perhaps bother them for the rest of their lives. Unless of course they manage to see these events in a divine perspective and be happy and greatful to Krishna for this experience - happy for you, and happy for themselves. I know I am...

I remain in our Gaudiya tradition with a deeper, more satisfying understanding of how it all works... and my debt is even greater than before...

Dear Kulapavanaji

Once again I thank you for your insightful comment. I appreciate it.

Although I am aware that people do like to accept easy explanations that fit within their world-view, such explanations never satisfied me. Problems arise when I give non-standard explanations that challenge others. Being challenged is not in itself a problem for it acts as a catalyst in the proper context, but being challenged when you did not expect to be or in ways that are shocking is a difficult thing. When I look back on my life, I find it hard to remember being really challenged by something that was comfortable. I do not want to say it is as a rule, but it seems to me that effective challenges come unexpectedly.

Challenges cause me to think in new ways and force me to evolve even against my will. I am comfortable when things remain the same for then I can predict what will be in the future and feel safe. Stability is important for me yet I know that it does not exist but is simply an idea that I accept because I so much want to. It seems to me it is an illusion I grasp because it allows me to avoid living in turmoil. Peace is good.

But, evolution is necessary. Therefore challenges occur when required. I am happy when I see others accepting the evolutionary challenge in a positive manner. I try to assist those who have not resolved the situation to an acceptable degree.

My assistance has limits. I do not feel that I must answer each and every question to the detail demanded of me as I do not wish to be forced into a particular mode of reply born of other's expectations. I hope that my comments can be accepted for what they are rather than for what they do not address within those who are still struggling. It is not that I am happy to see the struggle, but I know that there is no way to avoid it. Certainly there was not for me.

And thank you again for your appreciation of what you did get which was not dependent on some answer to a philosophical question but is directly realized by you through your experiences.

After all what has happened in ISCON I personally fill great joy for
me, because I have got a freedom to be myself. And one of the real
reason for that was Hari.
I have deeply realized that to go inside, to our real self is impossible with organized crowd
of people. Because after some time it becoming artificial, and since
we are not with our real self(thus unsatisfied) even after ten, twenty ears in that
organization, we try to find something spiritual in the organization,
rituals, gurus and so on. In other words trying change inside, our
real world with outside world, like all religions do. We try to put
our burden to another's shoulder.

How is it sound, to trough away everything and try to find real spirituality
ourselves? Using the help of others but be fully responsible for our
life?

Why lament about the past. The reality is here and God with us.

One who does not want - searches for causes and one who wants - searches for ways.

This is a very good signature. Where did you quote it from? Or did you invent this yourself?

I appreciate your comments. Thank you.

I am trying hard, Auttareyaji, to understand what it is you really want from this discussion and what it is you want from me. As I read your comments, it seems you are eager to chastise me for my offenses against you, and I accept your chastisement. You also seem to be pushing for me to define myself to you in terms of my former engagement in ISKCON, but I will not since that is not who I am now. You are dealing with me now in the present, not in the past. You may not like that and you may complain that this does not answer your questions, but this is the reality of the present. I marvel at the idealism of your other comments but I do not accept such idealism as practical.

You say that you are not sure if I remember you and at the end of your text you declare that I do not know you. Although I admit to not remembering everyone, I do remember you well. Amongst other things I remember your going off to Asia and also I remember specific incidents and inclinations that I will not detail. I remember you laughing in classes. Is this enough proof that I remember you or shall I detail in public more?



Sure I remember your face as I always remember faces but not always names. Not only would I recognize you on the street but would be surprised that you were in Gainesville. As far as love, well, that is a difficult, complex, and long subject to write about. The fact that I am replying to all your texts is certainly an expression of love I would NOT "offer to ants, trees, birds, other people, etc" [to use your words]. Does this not matter to you? I am expressing my love for you by being honest, open, and assisting.

I do not recommend that you look at me through any vision based in the past as it does not reflect the present reality. I do not live in the past and do not wish to have to prove anything to you. I see no value in answering your questions about the quality of my spiritual position in the past since I worry that my answers have a good chance of falling into the hands of your judgment. You believed what you believed in the past because you wanted to and you continue to believe what you want. No matter how I answer your questions you will believe what you wish. Whatever answer I give will not satisfy you for your doubts will cloud my expressions.

You do not give me pain with your words. I feel the pain of your struggle to make sense of the puzzle you are presenting. Why not just move forward from where you are presently situated instead of trying to rewrite history to accommodate the present? Why not simply say, "That was nice then, but now there is another situation. I shall accept what is good for me from the present and let the past remain where it is." This is not avoidance neither an excuse, but rather a practical plan of action for developing one's potential. You cannot do anything about the past even if you uncover every detail of it. But you can feel better about it in the present. The method of feeling better about the past does not depend so much on our understanding of it as it does on our acceptance of it. When you can accept the past you are better able to appreciate the present and the gifts the present is offering you.

Since you are a dedicated follower of the vaisnava tradition, here is a quote from Bhaktivinode Thakur that addresses your situation. He says, "Forget the past that sleeps and of the future never dream at all. But go with times that are with thee and progress ye shall call." The sleeping past was your belief in something that is not now. Your pain is presently a product of the past. Better for all of us if you would live in the present and see if the present can offer you something of value. If something I say or do has value to you then accept it if you want; but, if it has no value to you, then reject it if you want and move on. But move on...

It seems to me that you have decided, for various reasons, that my leaving ISKCON is a demonstration of my lack of spiritual quality and therefore you write as you do. When this idea is mixed with your pain you express yourself somewhat aggressively. My problem in this communication is that I do not accept this logic, neither do I wish to be constricted with such a limited understanding. My not being interested in answering your direct questions about spiritual qualification is due to my seeing these questions as irrelevant in my vision of spirituality.

You say that I do not know you, and certainly you must believe that, and further, that you do not know me, and I sadly have to agree with you. I suggest that if you do indeed wish to know me that you make some endeavor to do so that is less aggressive. If you do not wish to know me, then perhaps it is better to let this pain go and not entangle yourself in these forums. If you are uncertain but are willing to investigate more then I suggest you watch the Saturday broadcasts and see how you feel about things.

Formerly you had no freedom to choose like this. You were initiated into a fixed understanding and system (here I refer to the external things that make up a tradition or society and not the essence of it) that may or may not have been relevant or even beneficial for you. Now you question this but your question avoids examining the system and targets me personally. This is what I have been addressing.

I object to such systems that demand you think or act in some particular manner. I say that you can do what you like at all times for ultimately this is what you do in all cases even when you follow a religious system. In my view, you owe me nothing and I owe you nothing. I have no demand on you and you have none on me. Our interaction, if any, is a product of voluntary choice. You are in control and you are in charge of your life. I do not wish to be in a position where I control or restrict you in any way. I do not think you need this neither do I think it is good for you to give up your personal responsibility for yourself. I do not want you to disempower yourself in any manner. I want you to have your full power and freedom to act with your personal integrity while accepting full responsibility for your choices. I am here only to offer assistance up to the limits of my capacity if this assistance is desired and it makes sense to offer it.

It is not that I am unhappy with having to discuss the past because it gives me pain to do so, for I can speak for hours about these points if I am motivated enough. It seems to me that the era of the guru, of fundamentalism, and of judgement and condemnation are quite over. Sure there was some good and some bad in all of it. Sometimes we had fun and sometimes we suffered. I am doing things differently now because I wish to. I have experience that this is better for me and for those I contact.

I will share my insights when it is helpful for others but I am not inclined to follow further in the direction you would have me go. It would be easy for me to say "You have to find your own way through this mess," but I cannot be happy with such an answer for you have been carrying this around for 7 years now and it seems to be too difficult for you to digest.

In other words, if you want to continue this discussion, please transform it into something that will inspire me to continue it. I request you to not express yourself in the same manner as it makes it hard for me to get inspired to write. I wish you well.

What Hari did for me:

When I was in ISKCON, he was the most practical guru, i.e. all what he done was aimed to practical effect.

In 1998 (the year of the revolution), I was in St.Peterburg and all the more advanced ISCKON members in St.Peterburg followed him. So I followed also, mostly carried away by a spiritual croud and authority.

But after 1-2 year of hearing his new ideas I have my mind cleared! So now I am not following the croud, authority or guru, and any written words of god. I use them, but I do not follow!

Another great thing -- that he pointed the books of Neal Donald Walsh, Conversation With God.

Hari wrote:

This is a very good signature. Where did you quote it from? Or did you invent this yourself?

I have noticed it on one site, little changed and translated it.

Hari wrote:I am trying hard, Auttareyaji, to understand what it is you really want from this discussion and what it is you want from me.

You are writing, that you have some problem with understanding what I am really want from you and from this discussion.
This is good point and good observation. If you don’t know or if something sound to you oddly, so ask me. If you really love me as you proclaim, it will be very easy to do for you. Isn’t?

I will answer and discussion our will go in proper, more satisfied way for both sides. Thanks this you can taste my inner, authentic intention as it is, and not this, who is in your mind now. Only in that way you will be really able to help me.

Hari wrote:As I read your comments, it seems you are eager to chastise me for my offenses against you, and I accept your chastisement.

I am eager to talk with person, who is brave to talk on not easy subjects concerning our past, present and future relation without any suspicion, who is ornamented by jewel of truthfulness and knowledge of burning fire of love in heart.

My otherness is not miles greeted by you and is subjected to be something wrong and unwanted. Please try again understand me with another state of mind. Try again.

Hari wrote:You also seem to be pushing for me to define myself to you in terms of my former engagement in ISKCON, but I will not since that is not who I am now. You are dealing with me now in the present, not in the past. You may not like that and you may complain that this does not answer your questions, but this is the reality of the present. I marvel at the idealism of your other comments but I do not accept such idealism as practical.

Please try to trace with me some interesting mechanism as follow:

First, it seemed to you that I am pushing something on you and therefore you are giving the statement: "I will not since that is not who I am now". It means that what was in beginning in the sphere of presumptions, now is in the sphere of reality of your mind and it is so strong, that even are reflecting outside in form of logical and emotional decoration of your post. You called it "the reality of the present".
So this phenomena’s are but reflection only of your inner reposition to the new situation, that I created and to me, as person, who causes it and therefore seemed to you that he challenged you.
Re your statements about inspiriting nature of challenging, given by you in your post to Sriman Kulapavana (and I hope to me too), I like it and therefore please go in that way. Because of it, I am not to the end disappointed with your moods and fear in your answer.

Hari wrote:I will not since that is not who I am now

If you not since that is not who you are now, at least remember that you are not born yesterday.

Dear Auttareya.

After reading your letters I got very unusual experience. I feel from
your letter that you vouchsafe Hari to help you. At list kind of a strange
attitude. And I don't also think that by saying all kind of thing to
him you'll get some extra spiritual realization. Non any of us.

So dear Hari I personally in this forum because I want to listen some spiritual discussions, realizations of others and mostly your opinion about
spiritual topics. I think most of us here for all this. But some inspired that
many people reading them here, getting harsh and harsh toward
you just to express themselves. I don't feel that this kind of letters
can give some spiritual help to anyone. So maybe it is possible to
moderate this kind of letters for the sake of other spiritually searching
people.

After all this is your forum and you don't obliged to hear all this
not constructive, senseless letters.

Please who read my letter comment my point by few words.
Thank you.