Harimedia Forum

Analyzing different sources of the information on this theme, I have drawn a conclusion, that the soul can come to parents during conception, after it in some days or months, and also is not excluded, that the soul comes earlier and for this reason two persons suddenly decide to give a life to other essence. How business actually are?
And in this connection it would be desirable to learn your attitude to abortions at once... The Philosophical point of view is known, the position of a nonviolence karma, etc. In a context of our most perfect vision of and ideas about that that victims does not exist how to define the choice and how to help people to make more successful choice, if nevertheless abortion not the most favourable karmic act? What know about it more developed essences?
Thanks.
Excuse for my English, I could not place the Russian version of a question at the Russian forum, the system does not accept my password and I cannot write to the manager

As you say, there are many different accounts as to when the soul, or the energy of life, enters the developing fetus. It would be presumptuous of me to declare that one is right and one is wrong. Therefore I cannot answer your question of what is the "real" situation.

There are different issues here. The most obvious, and the one that is stated by all religionists, is the right to life of the child. For the opponents of this stance, the right of the mother, or other's involved, is at least an equally important, if not more important, right. Without repeating the entire polemic I shall simply say that there is validity in both points.

However, the most interesting question to answer is, "When is the spiritual personality entering the body of the child?" If it comes after a certain point in time, is an abortion performed prior to this point considered killing? If this question could be answered, the debate may somewhat cool off.

There are many problems to finding the answer. The most obvious is that no one can do research on when the personality enters the body. It is scientifically impossible to determine this as science lacks sufficient understanding of consciousness and it would be safe to conclude there is no conclusive scientific answer at present. This leaves us with religious literature (which almost always points to life at the moment of conception), alternative literature of the theosophical or psychic viewpoint, or the newer forms of spiritual literature, such as "Conversations with God," or "Journey of Souls," which point towards the consciousness of personality appearing at a later date.

There are some who feel that although the living body is manifesting and displaying signs of movement, capacity to respond to stimuli and so on, the specific bonding of the personality spirit and the physical body takes place later on. This has been discussed by Michael Newton and others. The exact moment when this occurs is more a function of higher arrangement and the desire of the soul than of the capacity of the body to sustain conscious life.

I feel that the latter ideas make more sense to me than the former. I do not find it acceptable that the soul will be placed in a state of total unconsciousness for so many months till the body develops and then be forced to remain within a restricted and compromised state till birth. The explanation is simplistic and does not resonate with me. I prefer the idea that the conscious personality bonds with the body over a period of time and makes an acceptable arrangement with it for cohabitation of the etheric and physical space chosen for the manifestation of its life. This implies the entrance of the spiritual consciousness (the individuated personality) at a later date.

This opens the door to relax the intense pressure on rape victims, forced pregnancies, diseased and damaged personalities and so on, who might look towards a terminated pregnancy as their only chance to continue to live their lives in any meaningful manner. But perhaps more important, if this idea is accepted it would help remove the intense internal guilt that mother's have when they abort children, a guilt that remains with them throughout their lives and eats away at their self-esteem and capacity for attaining happiness. Like all religious inflicted guilt, it is not required and has adverse affects on the world.

I make no comprehensive declaration here and I do not claim to have answered this topic according to some higher principle. I have tried to express all sides of the story and have given a limited response based on my feelings. This does not mean I will never transform these feelings in some way and thus I do not expect that anyone will take what I answered as anything other than my present opinion. I cannot speak for the more developed essences, but I suppose they have influenced those who have already written about the topic and it was done in a manner which I find reasonable.

Hari
your reply seems a bit wishy washy. Why can't the soul be unconscious during the period that it is in the womb? Most people sleep eight or nine hours a day, a third of their life if not more, and they are for all practical purposes unconscious. Granted that many times on a subtle level they journey into other realms -just like sleep walking- but they are still not conscious...
Abortion is a violent, fear based act. It is not harmonious with the laws of the divine mother. I have read Journey of Souls, Conversations with God and similar texts which try to justify the violence by stating that the soul is not in the physical body. I wasn't very impressed with Journey of Souls, although I do think that some of the authors research is valid. Conversations with God was even worse. I would prefer to read the realizations of a genuine saint. Nothing wrong with inspirational work, but don't claim that the inspiration is directly coming from God.

Does this mean that if we destroy the body of someone who is sleeping or in a coma due to an accident that it is ok? If I astrally travel while I am asleep does this mean that you can smash my head? The soul does not die but does this justify destroying my body?

This same sort of nonsense is used by Christians and others to justify the killing of animals for food, sport and scientific experimentation.
The physical body cannot grow without the soul being present. This is a fact.
Abortion is not an act of kindness and most certainly not based on higher consciousness.

As I stated in my reply, I did not try to answer definitively. I did not try because I cannot answer with conviction as I do not have the personal experience within my conscious mind of how the consciousness within the womb manifests. I have seen children in the womb respond to light, but on what level this response takes place is hard to determine. Considering my lack of expertise, I do not feel it wrong to speak about what others say or feel about this issue. Your response represents the point of view of those who feel strongly about the need to protect unborn children. Although I would certainly agree with the nobility of such a value, I would not have expressed myself as you have. If my lack of conviction qualifies my answer as wishy washy, then so be it. As I have said many times, my replies will be based on my experience, and if they cannot be, I will say so.

I did not say the soul "cannot be unconscious" during the long time in the womb -- I said this was a simplistic idea that did not resonate well with me. Your objection also does not resonate with me. "Why can't it?" is not an argument I would wish to reply to, for anything is possible in the realm of the unknown. Your comparison between an embryo and a sleeping person is also not illuminating and I doubt that the books you critically mention have discussed this issue with the idea to justify violence. They seem to be suggesting that we have understood pregnancy and the consciousness of the embryo incompletely. Logically this implies people have defined abortion improperly.

Abortion can be defined as violent when one considers it the murder of a living soul within a body. But some do not define the life within the body that way and how one feels about abortion depends on how the embryo is defined. One may believe religious literature or one may consider modern spiritual literature, or one may make the decision based on what is best for oneself. Some religionists say it is self-evident that it is violent murder while others say this idea is primitive. I think discussing it is good and therefore I took the trouble to answer the question in the first place and am now taking the time to reply to you. I feel open discussion is a means to assist those who have to make such weighty decisions to make them with greater awareness. I do not like to partake in mandating what is right or wrong for everyone does what they think is right at the time they do it. Giving one all the options available and explaining each is valuable. There are professional counselors, loving relatives (who often never hear about the pregnancy), friends, or literature available to enable the seeker of help to find it. I tried to assist in one small and rather insignificant way to expand slightly the spiritualist point of view by quoting some of the available ideas.

To state that abortion is fear based does not negate the requirement of some to accept it. Do you mean to say that anything done out of fear should be rejected? This means one should only act out of love. This sounds like Conversations with God to me. Yet some women or young girls feel this fear so strongly they consider abortion their only option.

If you were to act out of love and work in a clinic or a center to assist those thinking of abortion to overcome their fear and make the right choice out of love, you might find it quite rewarding. There are also some who work in centers to help those who wish to abort to accept their situations better. After all, many girls who have had abortions regret it and carry this pain with them their whole lives. Others are convinced it was the right choice for them.

You say some of the research done by Newton was valid. This means you invalidate the rest. On what grounds do you invalidate his research? Were some aspects of the research improperly conducted? Were the results tainted? Or was it that you disagree with it? Perhaps you chose your words improperly to express your ideas?

Does this mean that if we destroy the body of someone who is sleeping or in a coma due to an accident that it is ok? If I astrally travel while I am asleep does this mean that you can smash my head? The soul does not die but does this justify destroying my body?

Your state the soul is sleeping in the womb. If you remember, I did not like this idea very much. If what certain persons say about the "soul" bonding to a personality later on within the womb is true, then the "someone" you speak about is not sleeping; rather, it is the body that is sleeping and the "someone" has not yet appeared. This is quite a different situation than when a living active soul goes to sleep and is murdered.

I am personally against causing animals harm. I am also against causing people harm, but sometimes harming one person to protect another is required.

What if a young girl is violently raped against her will in a manner that scars her for life and which fills her with hatred towards the rapist and the world? This unwanted baby who was violently thrust into her womb against her will represents to her the horror. Is allowing her to end her pregnancy not "harmonious with the laws of the divine mother?" I do not know. Do you? You may be convinced you do know and I have nothing to say to that. I am convinced I do not know, yet I would feel comfortable with assisting that young girl and supporting her choice, whatever it is. I know I cannot really answer your challenge as I am a wishy wash, but I do think there is much more to consider, especially if you are the potential mother and your life threatens to be torn apart by something beyond your control. I have only mentioned one hypothetical situation and my not mentioning others does not negate the possibility that other situations might be equally valid to pregnant women.

The point of my original text was not to definitively address the issue of whether abortion is right or wrong. I was trying to offer some balanced insight into the complexities of this difficult subject as there are people I know who have struggled enormously with their past actions. I do not like to condemn such persons.

It would be very hard for me handle having to personally make such a decision, and I pray I never have to, but I would avoid trying to dictate to others how they must decide as I would want to give a broader picture and multiple options as an assistance to women in stress. But then again, this is just me. I can conceive of how forcing a woman to not abort could later turn out to be disastrous both for her and the child and create consequences as entangling as one might believe the abortion to be. Contrarily, I can also conceive of a happy future. You might feel strongly and demand women to have their children regardless of the cost based on what you believe to be philosophically correct. I will not argue against your belief. I have tried to clarify somewhat the issue in the light of your strong expression of it.

As feminist and lesbian woman of color who has worked in the professional counseling field as well as been involved in social activism since the 70's, I feel that the soul most certainly is present within the developing physical body and that abortion is not a good thing. Your response with its logic and word usage is so typical of males who feel that they know what is best for women. I have counseled many, many of my sisters who have been emotionally torn apart by their abortion experience. While having their daugther ripped from their wounds may have seemingly solved their problems, in reality the seeds sown only led to to more pain and suffering.
My father was in Hitler youth and experienced the hell of the Second World War. He spent two and a half years doing slave labor in a concentration camp in Siberia. He was in Germany when the invading Soviet troops gang raped girls as young as seven or eight and elderly women in their 80's.
I see no difference between rape and violence against women in general and the abortion of our daughters in the womb. Life comes from life and while we have the power to create the conditions for life it is the Divine Mother who bestows it upon us. In the 80's I marched in protest with my sisters against the madness of nuclear arms as well as insanity of the murderous abortion industry. It is the same madness caused by the same greed and desire to lord it over others. Playboy loves abortion and both exploit women.
I understand that you do not want to take positions on things that you are unsure about, but I feel that this is wishy washy.
I DO VALUE and deeply respect your views but to say that their is no life within the womb is just not factually correct>
Before you decide that abortion is good for victims of rape and violence talk to women who have been there and listen to their stories> did you know that in India and China most of the children murdered are female?
I believe that homosexuality has in most cases is caused by genetic factors> how many parents would chose to abort their daughters if they knew that the unborn baby was going to be a lesbian???
many times the mentally and physically challenged are aborted>>> the excuses and justifications are the same as what you state about how abortion is helping the mother etc>
your teacher Prabhupada rightly compared abortion to animal slaugtherhouse and from what I have read he could actually see the divine within everyone equally>
I pray that the Divine Mothers blesses you and helps you to see the sacred< seamless garment that connects all life in whatever form it may be present in> Divine Mother loves her children and wishes us to live peacefully and walk in harmony with the Earth>

I do not claim to know what is best for women and neither have I stated there is no life within the womb. I do not think you understood my response. I doubt that my response is typical as I do not think many have expressed themselves as I have.

I agree with you totally about assisting women and girls who have been abused or harmed. If I were to consider your points without considering the manner in which they were expressed, I could see them as proper and demonstrative of your compassion. I can see you feel very intensely about these subjects and I encourage you to continue offering support to all traumatized women.

It pains me to read that I fall within the category of those who exploit and harm others, for this is not how I feel, neither how I act. I do not see, however, how my wishing to allow females the option of dealing with their problems as they see fit as qualifying me as ignorant and therefore needing to see the divine within everyone equally. Although I do wish to see in such a manner, I do not understand your need to express yourself so vehemently to me in public as if I were an enemy, but you have a right to express yourself so and I understand you have many personal reasons for doing so. We seem to disagree, although I am not sure if you understand the very limited way in which we see differently for had you not chosen to be so acrid in your expression I would have found little to disagree with. Sometimes one can do more good by seeing the points of agreement and understanding the areas of disagreement than by magnifying the disagreement and thereby nullifying any agreement.

You have certainly turned me off in this exchange and because of that I see no reason to continue it. You did not succeed in transforming me to your cause and you succeeded in pushing me away. I know you deeply believe in what you express, but perhaps the energy of your texts is borne of other unexpressed personal reasons. I also believe in life and wish to support it as best I can, but consider this: when one is fanatical in any issue, the fanaticism tends to alienate others and push them into opposing the fanatic, even if they would not ordinarily do so. Calm down and relax for it will make you a better representative of those you wish to help.

Perhaps you would utilize your energy better by writing in forums where such topics are encouraged rather than in this small forum where we are dealing mainly with other types of issues? I think you could assist those you wish to protect better by focusing your insights at those who encourage and assist in actions which are obviously harmful.

The Germans have a proverb "Der Ton macht die Music" which means the sound makes the music... What I would like to say I guess is that although we may have originated from the Supreme, I am sure it is not in his interest that he may domineer over us rather patronize or encourage us to discover us new. For me, Hari's thoughtful answer points in the same direction, very enlivening to read.