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The word "Initiation" carries a number of meanings, and is the source of much confusion among adherents of devotional traditions unfamiliar with this fact.
The literal meaning of the word Initiation is simply a "beginning" and can be used in the same sense in which we speak of initiating a program, initiating a project, or even initiating a love affair. A spiritual initiation is also a beginning, but because of the different things that the word refers to, it is at least two kinds of beginning.

On the one hand, an Initiate is someone who has been accepted into a particular tradition after undergoing specific ordeals and ceremonies, and usually after learning specific lore, skills and rituals associated with that specific tradition. That sort of initiation is the beginning of accepted participation in a tradition upon a societal level. On the other hand, a spiritual initiate is usually someone who has attained to spiritual cognition.
A person receiving this type of initiation undergoes mind expanding (mahatma) and identity-altering experience.

Initiation into a tradition upon an a social level is specific to that tradition only and is a sectarian affair. To be initiated into Gaudiya Vaishnavism is not to be initiated into a Shaivite sect or into Thugee. It does not even imply initiation into other Vaishnava traditions, such as that of the Ramanujas, etc. Initiation into the realm of transcendence however, is nonsectarian, it is universal, for the laws that govern such initiation are constant and eternal and cut across all sectarian lines.

Nominal or formal acceptance into a specific tradition by an initiation ceremony or ritual is definite and clear and marks one as a member of that tradition. One is either an initiate of that tradition or one is not. The ritual that marks a person's acceptance into that tradition and the outward signs of one’s acceptance into that tradition, markings, type of dress, etc., cannot be mistaken for anything else. Initiation into spiritual experience is otherwise however. There is no outward sign or show that is anything other than symbolic of an internal experience. In this latter type of spiritual initiation, although some experiences along the road are sharp and definitive, the journey continues throughout one’s lifetime and even beyond, and can continue from lifetime to lifetime.

Due to our conditioning which carries with it the internalized consideration that God, the soul, etc., are unknowable by definition, at least until some post-mortum phase of our existence we do not expect to experience, or realize a traditions esoteric content while we live.

A kanishtha or lower-class devotee can only tell another devotee through some outward show or appearance and is usually content with that mode of recognition. They can be distrustful of anyone's claims to membership or participation in their tradition unless the person claiming that participation has undertaken the formal rites that mark one externally as a member of that tradition. A madhyama adhikari or mid-level devotee on the other hand can usually tell another devotee without any outward indication. There is no brahmana’s thread, saffron cloth, nor any outward expression that marks one as an initiate, but to those whose spiritual senses are awakened there is no masking it!usually.

Initiation into a tradition can be on the one hand then maybe merely a formality, between the nominal authorities of that tradition and the person being accepted into that tradition. It is not necessarlily the nominal authority that offers one spiritual initiation, but the spiritual authority of that tradition acting through, or being mediated by that nominal authority. The spiritual authority is not however dependent upon the nominal initiating authorities pureness, potency, or even his or her sincerity to exercise its own prerogative to award spiritual initiation to anyone that it wishes to award spiritual initiation to.

A rascal guru who is initiating a genuine and sincere supplicant into a bonafide tradition cannot stop by his own rascaldom the actual spiritual authority of that tradition from accomplishing the real initiation of the supplicant. That force simply jumps over him. Similarly a person can receive spiritual initiation into a tradition even through a picture, or through a book, or through a mantra recoded on a tape recorder.

Initiation done in the company of others, who are witnesses to the ritual of initiation can attest later that it was done, assures one’s recognition as being a member of that tradition assuring them nominal recognition as a member of that tradition. On the other hand, spiritual initiation is between the Initiate and the spiritual potency of whatever tradition he is seeking to become a member of. Even if it occurs amidst a multitude it is always a most intimate and personal event. When an outward expression of this internal initiation expresses itself physically, such manifestations are usually held in reserve, to the extent that it is possible for the one experiencing them to check their display.

The true value of any tradition claiming of itself to offer transcendence is to be found in its ability to liberate one from illusion and to establish one in the truth of his own existence, to realize his highest potential.

An Initiate in this sense, means a person who has spiritual experience, who has "seen the truth", who has at least a degree of spiritual awakening and cognition, and who is thus actually capable of helping both himself and others in their perfection of sadhana bhakti.

What is the difference between the mind of an Initiate and the mind of a non-Initiate?

To ask that question is to create an artificial dichotomy from what is really a continuum, because initiation is an unending process. Still, certain things can be said about what initiation does for a person.

To begin with, an Initiate is more sensitive to transcendence. An initiate can sense, and a sufficiently advanced initiate can see that each living entity is spirit soul, can discern their situation, not just their gross physical situation, but where they are situated within the modes, can understand their mentality. An initiate can tell if something has been offered, whether it is prasadam, or bhoga, without being told. He or she can detect transcendental presence, can converse with and receive information from the Deities.

Secondly, an Initiate is able to mediate, to inject transcendence, to adjust the situation, to raise the level of consciousness by an act of will, to invoke the mercy of the Deities or some other source of power and have it respond, to direct that power to accomplish things in the world.

Third, an Initiate becomes over time more harmonious internally than a non-initiate. The level of internal conflict is reduced, and positive associations are increased among the various parts of his mind leading to the generation of all good qualities.

Fourth, to be initiated is to have the mask of one’s false ego dissolve into nothing, to become free of phyical and mental identification with ones former mundane identity. To be initiated is to remember the face one wore before one was born into this material nature. To be initiated is to understand the essential identity between one’s self and every blade of grass, to realize in fact "aham brahmasmi," .

If you have not had this experience, you do not understand the last sentence, and it is dangerous to think that you do.

When we speak of initiation, we are really talking about two processes, the awakening of the true self, or self realization, the opening of the Eye of Shiva that destroys the (illusion of the) universe (as formerly perceived). This occurs suddenly, blindingly, startlingly, and yet with a sense of complete familiarity and remembrance, a sense of "Why, of course, how could I have forgotten this?"

The other part is the gradual raising out of the modes and an increase in transcendence and the achievement of higher and higher levels of internal and external harmony. One is, in effect, changing into another order of existence, another type of being.

These two processes reinforce one another. When the first occurs, it occurs suddenly, brilliantly, as an intuitive insight, in what the poet Rilke called a "conflagration of clarity", and like St Paul’s conversion on the road to Damascus, like Dante’s love of Beatrice at first sight, it is overwhelming. One does not automatically make sense of such an experience immediately, or even until many years afterwards. It is indeed almost certain that the Initiate will forget the revelations that this flash of transcendence brings unless he is with associates who are of the same level of initiation as he and with whom he can share his mind, or with more advanced associates who usually have some clue as to what he is experiencing and who can help him to make sense of it.

If one does not share ones realizations then one will generally forget them and simply return to old patterns of thought and behavior. This tends to occur repeatedly, and the entire process can lead to some interesting and quite unbalanced delusional states, as the ego tries to fit its new perceptions into its old framework.

The second process, by gradually elevating one's level and transforming consciousness at increments, provides a new framework in which the perceptions of the first process can be remembered and acted upon. At the same time the first process provides the second with a tremendous burst of energy, a jump start in the process of spiritual evolution, and also a vision of a goal, without which it might never begin, fail to continue or fail to take up again, though many years after.

A very interesting look at this topic. Thank you for sharing your understanding with us.

Hari wrote:A very interesting look at this topic. Thank you for sharing your understanding with us.

Your welcome Hari. Just repaying a debt to your old master Srila Prabhupada. Thank you for your tolerance, politeness and courage.

Elsewhere on this forum one of its members commented that wherever he went in the movement that all of the authorities were the same, that they were all caught up in the mood of enjoying. But why should they have been any different than any other human being, especially since way back then we were all so young and science has discovered that we do not attain intellectual maturity until we are in our twenties (and to wisdom until our teeh start to fall out.)

Why should they have been any different than anyone else, because we thought that they should be, because we thought that anyone who joined the Krsna Consciousness movement abandoned their humanity? Were we so different?

Boy were we naive. Humanity isn’t so easily abandoned, no matter what we think. Principly because being human means that we more than with we think, we also feel, and it is emotional need that motivates us, not some philosophical justification that compels us to seek the truth.

We may not be aware of this, we may be convinced that we are through with trying to enjoy the material creation and attempting to be it’s master, especially when we were just getting into it.

Humankinds thinking brain is in actuality only a small part of us, like the tip of an iceburg, and what lies below that tip, under the dark waters where we are not perceptive of it, can sink the greatest ideal.

Besides a conceptual self, the part of the human brain that thinks or abstracts, manipulating symbols (words) according to Game Rules, and interprets existence metaphysically, there are at least two other brains which occupy the space in our heads, the older, or fixed brain and the mammalian, or ossilating brain.

Each of these brains has its own identity and its own way of processing or dealing with things, including us and neither of these other brains is susceptible to logical convincement. One can read Srila Prabhupada’s books to them all day, explain to them eloquently the easons that they should enlist themselves in Krsna’s service, but no amount of words will lessen their resolve to carry out their own agenda’s for they simply do not understand words at all. They do not speak with human voices, they bark, they growl and they hiss, and though they do not understand our words they understand us very well, what we want and what we need, from a purely false ego (mind-body) identification.

The older brain, the fixed brain which we share with snakes and other reptiles, does not care about our pleasure, does not care about our pain. It does not fight, it does not play, it survives.

The Ossilating brain, or mammalian brain craves pleasure and shuns pain....,
and the human brain goes around all day mostly exhibiting its conditioned defects, completly bewildered, rationalizing its behavior, its service to these other selves by manufacturing endless rationalizations. This is exhibition of the cheating propensity, and becoming self delusioned into believing it’s own line of hype, in ones own mind some explanation of ones existence that satisfies the fixed and ossilating brains need and desires and provides one a glorified sense of self. Good luck becoming Krsna conscious, for everything that you do isn’t devoted to Krsna’s service but to the service of your own false ego.

The self-deluded person thinks that he regards Krsna consciousness as the greatest hope, the greatest promise, but to the older brains, Krsna consciousness is a threat to the false ego, to its survival and to its control. To the false ego Krsna Self Realization is a death threat..

For a spiritual community to engender the experience of transcendental awakening in its members, it must provide an atmosphere in which the false ego’s associations with survival, procreation, sensory delights and agonies can be weakened. As long as those associations are strong, the force of these very powerful concerns will pull the mind’s random wanderings around fear, anger, lust, and related images and concepts, and will direct one’s efforts and awareness towards achieving those ends. It is virtually impossible to be cosmic when your angry, hungry, frightened, and only a little easier for people in the grip of lust.

The societal associations can also provide a barrier to initiation, however, though a more subtle one. When these connections are strong, the influence generated by a society to which a person belongs shapes that person’s behavior to conform with (or, in some cases, to rebel against) the cultural norms. Every culture and subculture has its modes of thinking, feeling and behaving, some of which have practical utility, but all of which serve to establish cult identity. They affirm that a person belongs to this group, and not that group, that they are devotees (or worse, demons)

While the societal associations embrace a wider circle than the primal associations, they are still limited, and the facility that they provide may still be limiting, contrary or even restrictive of its purpose of bringing about the dawning of transcendental awareness and experience among its membership.

Survival, procreation, and societal norms are quite powerful influences upon the individual, but the influence of the initiating authority of a tradition, its spiritual potency is even stronger and may override all other concerns for an individual, but not in general, for below the paramarthic level there is simply no such thing as an individual as far as actual selfhood is realized. Until that very moment of self-realization, we are those very false egos that we so frequently disparage but hardly recognize as what they are; process and product, of conditioning. Part og this conditioning includes programs and programs run on automatic.

Because the primal and societal associations are much closer to ones false ego than the average person’s strength of desire for self realization, it is needful to provide a society in which those associations are attenuated at the same time the initiatory connection is strengthened in order for spiritual awareness to occur almost inevitably in its members. This cannot be done when one is thrown into association with those who are more interested in their own self aggrandizement than they are in Krsna consciousness and who may even be inimical to Krsna and to His devotees even while they consider themselves to be one of them.
For an individual who is progressing spiriritually, spiritual awakening equals not only self-awareness, but awareness also of others around oneu. Such an awakened individual is anathema in such a society, as an honest person is among a gang of thieves. In such a society spiritual awakening is something to be guarded against. Thus, in such a society there may be an effort to expel any persons who are awakening from its midst, or to wrest the control of it from any who are spiritually advanced, including even its fonder, what to speak of it's general membership.

The need to separate the false ego from primal associations is recognized by many initiatory traditions. The most common method of doing this, historically, is described succinctly by the three vows of a Christian monk: poverty, chastity, and obedience.

The vow of poverty requires that the seeker give up the quest for material prosperity (and the order takes care of his or her physical needs). The vow of chastity requires giving up the quest for procreation and for sexual pleasure. The vow of obedience requires giving up the quest for power and control

Monastic orders of both East and West take this approach and appreciate its effectiveness, but spiritual authorities are not the only ones who recognize its effectiveness (Programs run on automatic). While it is enabling of an individual within a society whose leaders are interested in things of the spirit, it is debilitating in a society which dovetails these things to the service of a leaderships material agendas.

Either way; traditions that employ such a model cloister the seeker in (normally) sexually segregated groups, remove all marks of individuality with a common mode of dress and hairstyle, and remove him or her from physical needs and dangers, or from the recognition that one has physical needs and is in physical danger should one find oneself a member4 of some materialistic persons cult following.

In really spiritually focused societies, he or she has then no need to deal with the primal associations, and is forbidden to do so within the society, although in certain societies, such as Shaolin and Krsna consciousness there is a move to train individuals to provide assistence to the larger societies around them in tangibles as well as in spiritual benifit.

In societies that revolve around the satisfaction of materialistic men however, one’s fears and desires are played upon and one finds oneself continually being motivated by manipulation. In such a climate it can in fact be much more difficult to attain to self realization than it would be if one went off alone or elsewhere

In spiritually focused societies, once these things are accomplished ones entire attention can then be turned to the quest for awakening and this has certainly been known to work, sometimes very quickly, or just in the nick of time in socities that are degrading from spiritual to material focus . Certainly in ideal situation it weakens the primal associations, one no longer feels the existential pressures associated with survival. It may, however, implant a new set of societal associations even stronger than the usual or previous ones that a person had left before he or she entered a particular movement. This is true of Christian monastic orders, where the Rule, like almost all Christian spirituality, is lamentably laced with dogma and restrictions on the intellect, as it also was in Krsna Consciousness.

The problem, once spiritual awakening is achieved to any degree, is maintaining the awareness afterwards and continually. This is very difficult for the false ego’s primary jobs are still its survival, procreation, and the senses and the ossilating mammalian brain still become agitated and tend towards coveting what is in sight. Functioning as a member of society means that one must go back to the same behavior that one was engaged in formally, liberated or not, and this can get very tricky for as with general law, ignorance of the law is no excuse. If one engages in activities in a liberated condition that are sinful, abusive, etc., one gains more karma and this effects ones consciousness, bringing it down. Pretending to the same degree of ignorance, or lack of perceptual awareness that may have confused one before does not pardon one from the sin of ommision. One of the reasons for this problem, which is most inhibiting to self realizations maintenance and further development, is that one’s newly found heightened state of awareness may put one into a contradictory version of reality with other members of one’s own society and may necessitate words or behavior that depart from the norm, if one is to "share ones realizations," which one must, or one will "forget" tyem. What "forgetfulness" means is that one will loose ones perceptual awareness, like when the sun is again covered over by a cloud.
For instance one who becomes awakened transcendentally may see the actual situations of others within the modes and may intuit their mentalities, which may assign to them a different position than the one that one had before, placing them into the position of seeing the truth. At this point the student becomes the teacher or does not. One cannot however refuse to teach and stay in the association of those who do not want the truth or of those who are the enemies of the truth.
Unless the truth is relative there is no option not to serve its needs which is to drive away the darkness and to enlighten others.

I would say its really interesting to see how different kind of persons can interpret written words complitelly differently acording to their own understanding and the school of thought or knowledge they may derive or get their understanding from, and its way of explaining things, with which one may occupy oneself with, isn´t it?

Or would you say, that there can be no two minds about it, or to whom it may concern?

harsi wrote:I would say its really interesting to see how different kind of persons can interpret written words complitelly differently acording to their own understanding and the school of thought or knowledge they may derive or get their understanding from, and its way of explaining things, with which one may occupy oneself with, isn´t it?

Or would you say, that there can be no two minds about it, or to whom it may concern?

The points of Bhagavad-gita, though they are simple and complete, can be understood from unlimited angles of vision.
SP Bombay 21 January, 1972


" One of the greatest difficulties experienced by the student, a difficulty which increases rather than diminishes with his advance in knowledge, is this: he finds it impossible to gain any clear idea of the meanings of the terms which he employs. Every philosopher has his own meaning, even for such universally used terms as soul: and in most cases he does not so much as suspect that other writers use the term under another connotation. Even technical writers and those who take the trouble to define their terms before using them are to often at variance with each other."
A Brief Essay Upon The Nature And Significance Of The Magical Alphabet
Aleister Crowley

"Feelings are real, guilt is an abstraction" De. Timothy Leary

From the works of two of two Initiates, both of them writing from the 20th century, both of them expressing in one way or another an understanding that only began to dawn in the West at the early part of the 19th century, the discovery that language is metaphoric, that words can describe meaning, can evoke feeling, but can never capture reality for they are not the things themselves which they represent, only the symbols of them. Or so they thought. But there was another guru whose works lay buried in a cave for two thousand years that taught me differently, that what was understood generally was a relative truth, and that beyond that, that there was a truth that flowed like water from an experiential realm of existence that was absolute. These were his words:

And Jesus said "He who will drink from my mouth will become like me. I myself shall become he, ad the things that are hidden will be revealed to him" 108 Gospel of Thomas from the Nag Hamadi Library.

Whether or not the actual Jesus said this thing, what whoever said this was referring to was a word or stream, or perhaps even a name that was not a mundane uttereance and which was spiritually transformative, that was like the fire into which a cold iron rod may be placed to become itself life fire. So we have here from this long obscured source a corroboration of the claims of the Vaisnavas that Krsna’s name is non-different than Krsna, and further that the words from the lips of the Christ or Pure Devotee of Krsna may be transformative of those who will drink of that fountain, that fountain that was not built by the hand of man. All this does not however remove us from our difficulty of communicating to each other in terms that for each of us may have a different meaning to each of us, but as long as none of us are model fundamentalists, both forgetful or unlearned that our linguistic grids both constrain our perceptions and mold our thoughts, and are not so attached to our own personal metaphysic that we will argue it’s objectivity in an irrational way, we still may be able to glean from each other some essence of meaning from our lives and personal perspectives in relation to that ideal that each of us in some way strive for, an inkling of the Absolute.

Like the blind men of Kathay, who each touched a different part of the elephant and came each came to the conclusion that it was a tree, a rope, or a wall, etc., respectively, we are also groping in the dark, and touching life in some way that interprets our experiences differently, but to the degree that all our any have had their blindness removed, even for a moment, such a one may express to us a picture of reality that, while not our own, may convey itself through even this stream of pixilated lines some truth that may dispel an illusion.

I don’t think that anyone here is a Jesus, according however to Bhakitivodes take on it, expressed in Sri Krsna sanhita, you may all be pure devotees. To Bhaktivinode Thakur the definition of a pure devotee extended to the sadhaka who had attained to the middle class devotional position, the madhyama adhikari, who is, according to Srila Narayana Maharaja sometimes awakened to transcendental vision and sometimes not.

I would hope that all of us who have followed some spiritual discipline would have attained to some at least brief glimmering of the transcendental objective and that this is the point for them and that they can speak about such things.

It surprises me, since I came back into contact with the movement (to answer your question; "No," I left it before Prabhupada left the planet." That very few devotees have either had, or express that they have had any elevation to the middle position in which there is some spiritual awakening, and it seems to me that Srila Narayana Maharaja (who himself admits to being only a middle class devotee) also is surprised at this absence (and also a bit worried that there may be some of them who have interests that may conflict with his own.

At parties very many people will readily discuss their visions of UFO, ghosts, etc., with each other providing that there isn’t any material fundamentalist around ready to pounce upon and ridicule them. In my writings on Initiation I find myself considering whether the repressive mechanism of the movement drove its somewhat self realized souls so much into hiding that they simply don’t talk about their spiritual experiences out of similar fear of being denounced or ridiculed, whether it is that or something that indicates a far more repressive and reactionary mechanism inherent in Western Society, something far for dangerous to the devotees than the devotees themselves have ever produced

real wisdom lies in sayng smart things in simple way

LvU wrote: Those who speak do not know:)

I guess then that means that you don't know anything, you did after all make a comment (speak) didn't you? Not to bright, everyone else saw that coming a mile away. So you are a man of Tao are you? Check out the last 2 lines of saying #66 and try to grasp it's import before attempting to mark off territory again, try to grasp it with your hsien-t'ien. A clue that will tell you whether you've got it is if your skin turns beat red. Linguistic grids mold perception and constrain thought. Feeling states do not progress in a liniear fashion. Concrete vs abstract, Left vs Right Brain pattern recognition, etc, etc., etc.

What did Lao Tzu mean to "know"? English is unique within it’s language group in having only one verb "to know", to express different kinds of knowing. Modern European languages use different words to characterize intellectual knowledge and another for the knowledge of personal relationships. The French, for instance, differentiate between savoir and connaitre, the Spanish between saber and conocer, the Germans; wissen and kennen, there are numerous other examples and our not being aware of this through a poor fund of knowledge leaves us somewhat dumbfounded when we try from a simply English speaking perspective to understand what Lao Tzu meant by knoeledge. From a broader perspective we can however comprehend that the type of knowledge that he was referring to was one very similar, if not identical to what the Greeks meant by their use of the word gnosis, which also defies intellectualization." The Tao that can be told is not the eternal Tao" and which also refers to personal relationships and also from an Initiated or Liberated perspective, one free from any tint or taint of false ego.So unless you can add something progressive to the topic of Initiation at this time, why don’t you go and think about it and return to it when you can add something to it when you can? I am not a fakir, but the important thing is that some things are genuine. It’s been over thirty years since I read the Way of Life by Lao Tzu, since I became a student of the third season stunt double for blind master Po in the original Kung Fu television series and decorated the walls of his martial arts studio with paintings of the Yin-Yang and Praying Mantis, but Lao Tzu’s sayings still shine, but not as brightly as sweet Govinda. Both attainable spiritual perspectives offer transcendence but only one offers love relationships in transcendence. I don't know if you've ever read Suzuki, the famous Zen master, but the man of Tao attains to a feeling state of Wabi, a somewhat forlorn longing that by it's mere existence carries the implication that there is something more attainable that self realization of one's oneness with the Tao, or in Sanskrit Bhraman.

Everyone possesses abilitities that are considered supernatural, everyone is psychic, at least in potential, they just don’t know it or how to develop their latent talents. Hard to do in culture where our minds are always racing, our thoughts are never still as they should be, as still as "The dark Lake of Persephone wherein the moon and stars reflect

Some people are even expected to be psychic. I was never quite sure as to whether people who practiced divination such as astrologers were included in that group, or those who could read a man’s life from a deck of cards, or those who practiced other forms of precognition. It always seemed to me that though the stars and the cards were supposed to have the ability to see into the future that the readers didn’t have to have the sight themselves, that all that they had to do was to read and to interpret that which was already laid out in their charts or spread out on the table before them. There are really two kinds of precognition and that which is practiced in astrology and card reading is the most common and its vision is based upon probability. It shows the future as it might be, as it may be, or even as it will be if events continue in the direction that they are already going. I always preferred this type of divinatory ability as it gives one an "out". It does not see one’s destiny with certainty.
There is a second form of precognition that isn’t seen as a gift, but as a curse. It is the actual vision of the future as it will be, inescapably, inevitably, a future in which all choices have already been made and all free will already executed. It is a vision from a perspective in which everything has already happened and any attempts to change the outcome will turn out to be ether ineffectual or the very events that cause the future circumstances to play out. Such a perspective is available to an eternally liberated soul which means a soul who liberated in eternity, whose perspective is unbounded by space-time.

"Intelligence is above the mind." That passage from Bhagavad Gita always seemed to me to support this consideration. It supports Drs. Walker and Herbert as well:

"The hidden variable theory of consciousness asserts (1) there is a subquantal level beneath the observational/theoretical structure of ordinary quantum mechanics; (2) events occurring on this subquantal level are the elements of sentient being."

Consciousness and the ability to perceive and to understand an event or a thing is a function of this subquantal implicate order, it functions non-locally, it is not in our heads but an aspect of a non-local field, non-local in space time.

It’s nice to know that some of the best minds in science are coming up with thoughts, theories, and even evidence that indicate that besides the individual receivers location within this material dimension of space time that a faculty innate within us may not be bound by such limitations. Nicer even is to know that Lord Krsna knew what they were talking about five thousand years before the best minds in today's science were even born.
Chaitanya caratamryta, or "The characteristics of the life force in immortality" as it is literally translatedare many and variegated and include many talents, many gifts and even such things as that Cassandra like ability that viewed from our conditioned perspectives may be seen as a curse, that ability to see things as things will be, unavoidably, and continue anyway, in the service of the Lord.

Srila Prabhupada was precognitive in this way, from his perspective of an uttama-adhijari all choices have already been made and everything is proceeding in accordance with Krsna’s arrangment.


But for those of you who have not awakened to your supernatural talents and abilities, how would you like to?

I belong to one of those groups of people who are "expected" to be psychic and I am willing to teach some devotees how to develop their latent supernatural abilities for both practical and spiritual reasons. I will accept both male and female students, up to about 12 total, who are interested and it is more than an idle curiosity. Please respond upon this thread and we can take it from there. Hari bol

p.s. There is no fee for this, jus some obligations not to use what I teach you in the mode of ignorance, or in the mode of passion in such a way as to manipulate others against their will or to harm.

Janus wrote:Everyone possesses abilitities that are considered supernatural, everyone is psychic, at least in potential, they just don’t know it or how to develop their latent talents. Hard to do in culture where our minds are always racing, our thoughts are never still as they should be, as still as "The dark Lake of Persephone wherein the moon and stars reflect

Disciple: Jung continues to recall his early spiritual quests in this way: "In my darkness ! I could have wished for nothing better than a real, live guru, someone possessing superior knowledge and ability, who would have disentangled me from the involuntary creations of my imagination."

Srila Prabhupäda: Yes. According to the Vedic instructions, in order to acquire perfect knowledge, one must have a guru. Tad vijnänärtham sa gurum eväbhigacchet [MU 1.2.12]. The guru must factually be a representative of God. He must have seen and experienced God in fact, not simply in theory. We have to approach such a guru, and by service, surrender, and sincere inquiry we can come to understand God. The Vedas inform us that a person can understand God when he has received a little mercy from His Lordship; otherwise, one may speculate for millions and millions of years.

As Krsna states in the Bhagavad-gita [18.55], bhaktyä mäm abhijänäti: "One can understand Me as I am, as the Supreme Personality of Godhead, only by devotional service." This process of bhakti includes sravanam kirtanam visnu [SB 7.5.23]"”hearing and chanting about Lord Visnu [Krsna] and always remembering Him. Satatam kirtayanto mam: [Bg. 9.14] the devotee is always glorifying the Lord. As Prahläda Mahäräja says in Srimad-Bhägavatam [7.9.43]:
naivodvije para duratyaya-vaitaraëyäs
tvad-vérya-gäyana-mahämåta-magna-cittaù

"O best of the great personalities, I am not at all afraid of material existence, for wherever I stay I am fully absorbed in thoughts of Your glories and activities." The devotee’s consciousness is always drowned in the ocean of the unlimited pastimes and qualities of the Supreme Lord. That is transcendental bliss. The spiritual master teaches his disciple how to always remain in the ocean of God consciousness. One who works under the directions of the äcärya, the spiritual master, knows everything about God.

Disciple: In 1938 Jung was invited by the British government to participate in celebrations at the University of Calcutta. Of this Jung writes, "By that time, I had read a great deal about Indian philosophy and religious history and was deeply convinced of the value of Oriental wisdom." On this visit, Jung spoke with a celebrated guru, yet he avoided so-called holy men. He writes, "I did so because I had to make do with my own truth, not to accept from others what I could not attain on my own. I would have felt it as a theft had I attempted to learn from the holy men to accept their truth for myself."

Srila Prabhupäda: On the one hand, he says he wants a guru, and then on the other, he doesn’t want to accept one. Doubtlessly there were many so-called gurus in Calcutta, and Jung might have seen some bogus gurus he did not like. In any case, the principle of accepting a guru cannot be avoided. It is absolutely necessary.

-The Quest for Enlightenment. Discussions on Western Philosophy and Science. Carl Jung Seeker without a Guide.

I am this days somehow in the mood to find out some deeper wisdom which might be available, behind the written words of some Scriptures or some personalities, and just came in the Vedabase, upon this conversation among Srila Prabhupada and one of his disciple. While on the one hand one could here understand the motivation behind what Prabhupada says in regard to the guru, after all he is speaking here to one of his many disciples in a growing Movement, I can also understand why Carl G. Jung says: "I did so because I had to make do with my own truth, not to accept from others what I could not attain on my own. I would have felt it as a theft had I attempted to learn from the holy men to accept their truth for myself."
After all I guess in the final analizes everyone has to find and become aware or realize his own truth in regard to spiritual matters.
I mean Prabhupada writes also here: "The Vedas inform us that a person can understand God when he has received a little mercy from His Lordship"

harsi wrote:

Janus wrote:Everyone possesses abilitities that are considered supernatural, everyone is psychic, at least in potential, they just don’t know it or how to develop their latent talents. Hard to do in culture where our minds are always racing, our thoughts are never still as they should be, as still as "The dark Lake of Persephone wherein the moon and stars reflect

Disciple: Jung continues to recall his early spiritual quests in this way: "In my darkness ! I could have wished for nothing better than a real, live guru, someone possessing superior knowledge and ability, who would have disentangled me from the involuntary creations of my imagination."

harsi wrote:[Srila Prabhupäda: Yes. According to the Vedic instructions, in order to acquire perfect knowledge, one must have a guru. Tad vijnänärtham sa gurum eväbhigacchet [MU 1.2.12]. The guru must factually be a representative of God. He must have seen and experienced God in fact, not simply in theory. We have to approach such a guru, and by service, surrender, and sincere inquiry we can come to understand God. The Vedas inform us that a person can understand God when he has received a little mercy from His Lordship; otherwise, one may speculate for millions and millions of years.

After all I guess in the final analizes everyone has to find and become aware or realize his own truth in regard to spiritual matters.
I mean Prabhupada writes also here: "The Vedas inform us that a person can understand God when he has received a little mercy from His Lordship"

The Vedas are correct and Srila Prabhupada was indeed a factual representative of God, he was also psychic.
I remember once a homeless man came to the temple and considering that I understood the sweet will of the Lord I considered that He would not want anyone to be hungry. Thinking like this I fed him sumptuously and loaded him down sumptuously with as much prasadam as he could carry away with him. The acting temple president in Seattle US, Bala Krsna saw me doing this and after the homeless man left he chastised me, telling me that in the future that I should only give such people a little and then promptly sed them away.
This upset me tremendously. I had a real crisis in my faith because of this.
Thousands of miles away Srila Prabhupada wrote a letter that night and sent it out the next day to every temple president in the world.
Several days later I was outside doing some service when the temple president came up to me. He was quite excited. He told me that he'd gotten a letter from Srila Prabhupada and that he wished me to be personally present in the temple room when he read it to the assembled devotees.
Part of the letter stated that everyone who came to a temple should be fed sumptuously and that no one within miles of the temple should go hungry.
This is what is referred to as a Jungian syncronicity or a coincidence so remarkable that it defies the laws of probability. There were others, quite a few, but this one was the most special to me, for here was Srila Prabhupada confirming to me that instead of being in error that I understood the heart of Krsna perfectly and bascically putting into law the understanding of Krsna that both of us shared. Srila Prabhupada "restored my soul" so to speak. So I feel some gratitude to him is in order which is why I have made this offer to teach a few devotees some things which are not transcendental in themselves but which may be dovetailed in the service of the Supreme.
Reality as we experience it is entirely subjective as you point out and teachers can only provide you with some direction and with some aid and with a little mercy. You must still seek the truth yourself.
I am not advertising myself as a spiritual master. In the way that you understand things I am a middle class devotee. Yes, I have some perception of of Krsna, and if what Srila Naryana Maharaja says is true in this respect I can give the bhakta lata bige, but that was not what I was proposing to do here, for I only consider myself fit to teach some techniques of self development that will aid others in their lives and in their path to perfection. Those techniques are pragmatic and results oriented, they work and will attain those employing them to an expanded awareness of themselves and of reality, materially and spiritually, but they will have to do the work themselves.
Jung was a bit of a cheat, Prabhupada was giving him the benefit of the doubt but Jung deliberately misrepresented some things and he knew better. Jung was friends with Otto, that famous German searcher into the reality of Transcendence and had once commented to him that the archtypes might have in fact a personal reality, that the Gods might be indeed Gods instead of what he made of them. Even in his psychoanalysis he cheated, using astrology to confirm his clinical diagnosis without giving astrology and the Occult due credit, wishing to appear "scientific". So that is that and I have some things to do. Have a good day my friend and don't forget Krsna. Hari bol