Devas

[kamalamala1]

Congratulation with successful operation
Now everything became clear.
Usualy Harshi writing interesting posts.
But since his dear wife was in the hospital he lost the energetic support of his wife and was very upset and that is why begin to write something strange and rude.
See woman’s energy power.
Harshi i know that you concerning what Hari say then please read again the part of Haris letter

" Harsi has the right to disagree with Drpta or to think whatever he likes about anything he likes, but when this deviates the discussion away from the topic towards Drpta, it is rude and against the etiquette of this forum."

So since it is Haris forum we should follow the rules he made.
And by the way we want to continue this interesting issue of Drptas post.

[harsi]

Somehow or other your conclusions, Kamalamala, remind me on the "Good Old Days" and the incident with Monica, or how her name was. Many people involved concluded the same in regard to someone known to all of us. The power of women is subtle, combined with beauty, intuition and inner wisdom. Our society needs the strength of women. Me too. When ones "better half" is in danger one cannot be unmoved by this. Krishna was often in a similar situation, Kamalamala, and mastered the situation bravely.

[kamalamala1]

So i was right.
So let us folow the rules of this forum.
" Harsi has the right to disagree with Drpta or to think whatever he likes about anything he likes, but when this deviates the discussion away from the topic towards Drpta, it is rude and against the etiquette of this forum."

[Drpta]

My congratulations too! I hope your wife become well soon!
And let us stop all these off topic debates.

[harsi]

Thank you, Drpta, my thanks also to Kamalamala for the good wishes. We are all together as one in this world and as such we should act and stay united. Only together we are strong. The Russian surgeon told me yesterday after the surgory that it was done in the last minutes. Would he haved waited one day longer my wufe would not have survived probebly. Another way of the Supreme to show his mercy.

[kamalamala1]

[harsi]

So while sitting in the train which will drive me to my place of work, Tadano is the new name of this factory outside of Nuremberg (in Engl. ) or Nuernberg in German original, see http://www.tadano.jp. a Japaneze company who owns now the former company Faun founded in 1896, I have 25 minutes time to write here something. It's not so that I have nothing to say in regards to the devas or Demigods as Prapupada calls them. They are for me with the exception of Lord Shiva and Parvati as well as Vishnu who cannot be seen as beeing demigods, all those other devas are just order carriers of the Supreme. Worshiping them means in my understanding bribing them or like giving money or goods to a man of the state or a member of parliament or government. Here in Germany even the President of the state had to leave his post or he would have been fired because in the media it eas found out that a few years before he became President he accepted to be invited by a friend a businessman for 750 euro to a small hotel with his wife. That small incident where he accepted bribe or a small favour as a politigion before his time as German president was enough that the German public lost their trust in him and he had to go...

[Drpta]

Hm, let us suppose if I have a good friend who, by the way, is a minister in government, and just because of my love to him I am giving him a gift. I want and demand nothing from him. I do it just of my love. We are friends. Is it bribe? I suppose not. But when someone came to empowered person and ask him for any special privilege in exchange for gift, than that person decided, how to do with that pleader and his gift. I think that business like this sometimes happens in devas realm. The question is, can devas commit any illegal acts? Is there, in devas realm a law structure like we have here?

[kamalamala1]

First of all Harshijee
An ant cannot bribe an elephant, it is inpossiblle.
How we can bribe Gods.
Second of all do you really understand who they are, can you imagine there wast knowladge There power there awarness ,they are ones who easally asossiate with Creator more then anyone .
Ones who was worshiped millions years by greatest rshis and Munis in the universe. Read Mahabharat read Ramayan read Rgveda and other vedas.
They dont need anything from us they just kindly without ecspectation giving us different facilities for life and kindly helping us to develop materialy and spiritually.
Thery are ones who really care about us like mother and father.
We are only so much Grateful to them .
See we should be really grateful to our mothers and fathers although they are not the original source
of life.
In Bhagavat Gita Lord Said that humans should be grateful to Gods because they supply all we need.
Look at the nature it is there creation and all balance there is There job.All beauty.
You know some traditions trying to put down Gods and more than that
trying to put there gurus higher then Gods ,for me it sound as a very bad Joke.
It is said in Chaytanya Bhagavata that without Lord Shivas Mercy nobody can approach Govinda.
The problem is that, that most of the people don’t see how much Gods doing for humans and all beeings.
And it is not at all that Gods just executing order they are doing because of there love and free will.
This is my understanding.

[harsi]

...if I have a good friend ... and ... I am giving him a gift. Is it bribe? I suppose not.

In terms of bribing - just this evening while travelling home, after visiting my wife Marina in the hospital where she is already on the way to recovery after the surgical operation from the weekend, I met in the bus an old friend of my father who originates also from Romania. We exchanged some friendly words and he asked me where I am going? I told him that I would be on my way home after visiting my wife in the hospital, and would go first to a shop to buy a small and adequate present to give it to the operating surgeon of my wife when he, being the Chief Physician there, would release her in the coming days from hospital.

He objected to this idea, telling me that this would be a kind of bribery, the way it was customary in Romania (in the Old Days, now things start to change there also although slowly) where the understanding was that you could not expect much from a doctor, or a physician in hospital, when you would not first offer him some substancial "present" - often a letter with money or some goods - so that he would feel obliged to help you. I told him that it is rather the other way around and that this Russian surgeon did his job unselfishly (of course in German hospitals doctors have a very good salary) and was not expecting or asking me or my wife of anything in return, when we approached him on Saturday morning in the hospital where I was driving my wife, after she suffered the whole night of heavy abdominal pain. He just told us after looking through the blood tests of Marina that she would need surgery as soon as possible. Four hours later he performed the operation after my wife gave her okay to it.

Now she is already over the worst and on the way to recovery (see photos). So making a long story short, I bought for 10 euros a beautiful gift and will give it tommorow in the hospital to my wife, who will give it as a thank to the doctor when she will be released home. Is it bribery? For me not. Since it is, or rather was, not so as you say after given careful consideration, "... when someone came to empowered person and ask him for any special privilege in exchange for gift". It is for me and my wife, who came up with this idea, rather a little gesture by which we would like to express our gratitude to this expert surgeon.


...Marina yesterday and today, right, in the Dr. Erler Clinic.

The question is, can devas commit any illegal acts? Is there, in devas realm a law structure like we have here?

A good question, Drpta. In your opinion, Hari, and according to your understanding, does something like this exist?

[harsi]

How we can bribe Gods (?)

Let me think: For example if I would perform a fire sacrifice for them, with the hidden, or ulterior motive to get something in return from them, instead of performing such a ceremony just for their pleasure out of some appreciation and love I might have for this divine beings, who are doing just their particular jobs under the supervising power of Vishnu, the Supreme. You may know what happened with Lord Indra after Krishna stopped the habit of his parents and villagers to "bribe" him in Vrindavan through the sacrifices they performed in order to put him in a gracious mood.

[kamalamala1]

For me such a primitive interpretations of Vedic stories not at all acceptable.
What if Lord Indra purposely did what he did in that story to Glorify Lord Krishna.
Snice anyway Krshnas power was hidden for most of the people in that time ,so as a result
of Govardhan story people was really amazed and understand who he is.Is nt it the best glorification
which ever one can imagine.
So we can say that Lord Indra so cleverly made such an advertisement for Krishnas power.
This is what was there i am sure,other interpretations is childish.
You know Lord Indra, is written, with other Gods was doing austerity 100 divine years austerity
for Lord Krishnas apearing on this earth, he well knew who is Krishna, few years which passed from the event of Lord Krishnas birth and Govardhan event is only few dayes for Indra ,how it is possible after doing austerity 100 years for Vishnus descendant, and after he was participating in Krishnas birthday immediately forget everything ???
Even ordinary human cannot forget that what to speak about Gods.
If people try to drag down and make primitive Gods then since Gods is closest assistant of Suprim
there imagination there understanding of Suprim will be as Primitive too what we usually saw in sects.
Actually that is why was writen in shastras that Shrimad Bhagavatam is not for everyone reading but who cares.
And once again Gods is not just order carriers ,they are acting because of there own free will and love,
it is not an office there and Boss and servants game as it is hear.

[harsi]

Of course there will always be some that disagree with the more generally accepted beliefs, but that is healthy if it causes you to think more deeply about them. For example I disagree with your authoritative belief or idea which I consider a characteristical remnant of the "Old Days," that I would have to obey to as you put it recently: "since it is Hari`s forum we should follow the rules he made." Would I really view it in that way, which I consider a return to the previous authoritarian regime, I would pretty much loose all interest to engage longer in this discussions here. I was always a freethinker even at the time I was fulltime engaged in the Hare Krishna movement from 1985 until around 1995. I never considerd it to be just Hari`s forum. For me it was and is a free forum where I can engage in exchanging views with like-minded people on issues close to my heart.

The facts of the matter concerning our faith is that in truth there can be just one God worthy of such a description, since there can be just one who is almighty and all-pervading. All other such beings can be seen as demi-gods or of lower value in terms of what my or the general understanding is about God Almighty, the Supreme.

That is why I like Krishna and I like the way democracy is practiced and understood in my country. Here the rule of law stands above and not might makes right. Even our President has to obey to this rule, he cannot view himself as being on the top or the souvereign and all other citizens of the state to be just bellow. In a true democracy, the electorate, the citizens of the state are the souvereign, quite different from a controlled democracy like in your country, where Putin and his cronies are considered or consider themselves to be the souvereign. Take it with a smile.

That is why nobody in the Western countries where the rule of law pervades whants anything to do anymore with this man, he broke the international law by taking Crimea by force and helping and encouraging others in Ucraine to follow in his footsteps.

[Hari]

This forum, "Discussions with Hari," is most certainly my forum. It is not a place where you can say or do what you want.

When I said that there is an etiquette in the forum to not hijack a thread or thwart the original intention of someone who asks a question, I was not giving rules in an authoritarian manner, I was saying what I want in my forum. Besides this being my request, this etiquette is valid in all forums. Please respect this. You have no inherent right to do what you want when it impedes the flow of the original author. So kindly stop. Neither are people interested in your continually commenting on everything that is written. It turns many away from reading this forum and makes them lose interest in participating in the discussion. Frankly, it is exhausting.

You assume that "our faith" [that we must, of course, all share in the same manner as you understand it] is the Hare Krsna one. Either you have seriously misunderstood who I am or you are purposefully creating disturbances. If your responses are motivated by the desire to cause others trouble then kindly remove yourself from this exchange. If you have misunderstood the basic format of what I do and cannot figure it out after all this time, you might find it advantageous to find more compatible websites to host your discussions. If there is a third factor involved, please write me personally and let me know about it.

[harsi]

You are right , Hari, our energies have spurred (escalated) each other on, in this your forum "Discussions with Hari." I think it´s time for me to simply take some time off from this lively conversations here. See ya at another time when my passionate energies have hopefully calmed down a little bid.