Speaking of sects

[kamalamala1]

Prabhupada: Basis, just to see whether he's qualified, that's all. Just like ordinarily one manager is appointed by the superior authority on the merit, on his qualification. That's all.


this sentense explanes evrything Prabhupad needs managers and so he made the title GUru in the sence of power man, the manager not in the sence of spiritualy mature person
the ISCON history proved that

for me from that bunch of Iscon Guru only Hari was and is realy qualifyed in my understandingf of this ward
thanks God that he changed evrything
when i read wath you wrote i once again thanked Hari in my mind that he by his exaple took me from that very strange sect
this things i dont like in Prabhupads books at all

[kamalamala1]

dont forget that Krishnadas Kaviraj was living in the times of Lord Chaitania and Nityananda and all devotees in that time was gods themself i mean in ISCOn term demigods an if so then it can have some meaning they was purely motivated ones , althought i consider such ideas not appropriate at all nowdayes ecsopesialy ,but wath nowdayes............?

[kamalamala1]

you know i think Prabhupada forfulfiling his goals had a very in some sence political strategy he wants to propagate some message and for that he needs organisation althought the goals ultimate was spiritual but the ways to propagate it was ordinary as organisations doing so he made some mixture
between spirituality and political and economical oraganisation and this kind of things alwayes comeing out with starnge results i mean sects since the motivations and methodology of this two
is oposit in many wayes.

[kamalamala1]

Following the logic from previous your texts anybodycan become instructing
Gurus,so should one consider there are all God himself,
this is complitly useless
since then the idea of God will loose its meaning
By the way sects perfectly doing that
by the way the text about Babaji and the one about wath Prabhupad said are comlity about oposit ideas

[harsi]

The last sentence you wrote is the flag and heart of sects, at least (of) the sects (who are) exploiting this idea very harshly without any shame and real understanding

siksa-guruke ta' jani krsnera svarupa
antaryami, bhakta-srestha,--ei dui rupa

"One should know the instructing spiritual master to be the Personality of Krsna. Lord Krsna manifests Himself as the Supersoul and as the greatest devotee of the Lord." (Caitanya-caritamrta, Adi-lila 1.47)

Let me explain to you how I understand this quote from Krishnadas Kaviraja Goswami which he wrote in the CC. The spiritual instructions we may try to guide ourself in life may well come also from God "within us", the Supersoul (antaryami, or caitya guru) manifesting himself/herself also as "the greatest devotee of the Lord," see: Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu.

What is your "understanding" in this regard?

[harsi]

Prabhupada: Basis, just to see whether he's qualified, that's all. Just like ordinarily one manager is appointed by the superior authority on the merit, on his qualification. That's all.

This sentense explains everything, Prabhupada needs managers and so he made the title Guru in the sense of power man, the manager not in the sense of spiritualy mature person, the ISKCON history proved that.

In my opinion like all teachers or "gurus", Prabhupada is just trying to establish that he is an expert on giving or revealing to his audience of listeners spiritual knowledge he is convinced, to the best of his knowledge and conscience, of being the truth. "Prabhupada: Just like Krishna said this knowledge to Arjuna and Arjuna said to others and it is open. Everyone can take it, there is no secrecy. We have to accept only, that's all."

My school teachers were also telling me often that I have to accept what they tought us using their specific reasoning in their arguments. Of course as I got older I sometimes made or came also to my own conclusions about what they taught me in their specific "authoritative" way. The disciples of Prabhupada must have been very childish in their understanding of "Vaishnava philosophy." Prabhupada may have therefore prefered they should "only accept" without any objection, what he taught them so "authoritatively" as coming "directly from Krishna." And indeed the answers of Hari-Sauri, Ramesvara and others in this interview are somehow very childish and naive (inexperienced, unenlightened, lacking more detailed information or instruction) when one reads them. Interestingly Prabhupada is only sometimes intervening and tells the reporter from the N.Y. Newsday Newspaper his understanding of the issues he wanted to know.

For me from that bunch of Iscon Guru only Hari was and is realy qualifyed in my understanding of this word. Thanks God that he changed everything. When I read what you wrote I once again thanked Hari in my mind that he by his example took me from that very strange sect, this things I don't like in Prabhupads books at all.

As far as I know Hari is not viewing himself as a "guru" anymore and just wants to facilitate our own spiritual growth.

[kamalamala1]

By the way
I also want to add something that when you want to spread something you need special endeavor
which different from the endeavor for enlightening people .

And the whole energy is different and the methodology/
Prabhupada deffenetly was most concetrated on spreading
For spreading one need army and in army must be generals so he made generals Gurus so called/
Prabhupad perfectly used the shastras for his goal althought they was writen for enlightening
Maybe it was needed in that time i dont know.
For spreading, Guru can be apointed but for enlightening he cannot be apointed he should be enlightened himself.
Srila Vyasadev and many other Munis and Rsis and also Lord Chaitanya Lord Budda was concetrated on enlightening

The most impersonal group of people is ISCON and the sects in general is nt it amazing since there endeavour is to spread, achieve ,not enlighten at all, and who cares about persons in army/
But this not wath we can call spiritual group/

By the way i appreciate also many good things from my point wich was writen and gaved by Prabhupad,
but i am complitly free to make my decicions and if i dont agree with anybody i will say that ,even strange to write this isnt it ?since amongst normal people it is natural.

/ your coment sound for me quite ok/
We can idealise evrything it is ok but when people trying to use our idealisation for there fame name glory and money then it is very harmful/
Krishnadas Kaviraj was very pure i probably think that he means when you becoming the desciple of great persons as Goswamis you should aprecate it but he deffenetly doesnt mean that if you becoming the desciple of cheater or
buissnessmen gur u i mean many of Iscon Gurus and many others /

[kamalamala1]

yes Hari is realy helping us in all wayes and spiritualy ecspeaialy.
wath supose in your understanding gurusould do.
Yes the ward is so borring so spoiled that i think he at all l doesnt like this ward and i also
doesnt like.

[kamalamala1]

The spiritual master is the representative of God to the disciple because he is in direct contact with God.

Prabhupada: My spiritual master appointed me that "You do this." Similarly I shall appoint somebody else, this is the way.
The aboveis Prabhupads wards

I realy dont know in the life of Prabhupad where was the story when his spiritual master appoint him as Guru
and similarly i dont know in the beography of Bhaktisidhanta Sarasvati when Gaurakishoraa das Babaji appoint him to be
Guru and also i didnt know where and when Bhaktivinoda Prbhus Guru appointed him to be Guru.
I do believe they all was nt appointed atta all

if you have any info about that please write i will be gratfull.

It is ok with me that they wasnt appointed as Gurus since in my understanding if one becoming enlightened he doesnt need to be appointed he is just doing wath he think is right wath to speak if he is in direct contact with God ,but in the light of oversaid the whole diciple succesion speculation becoming useless and it is good /
No need to exploit all the great names sages for personal interest.

Please understand me rightly i appreciate all of them
And b for there devotion to Lord and so on but it doesnt mean that i wil consider all of them faulthless.l

Since i didnt know the real motivations i cannot judge.

All this guru buissness realy harmful nowdayes this is my conclusion..


My conclusioun is that Prabhupad was great person and he did great thing he was acting in certain time and he made all his metodology and tactics according that time and his goal to spread wich he did succesfuly,but the institutions he made as Guru Sanyasy doesnt at all needed and doesnt wark and even in most cases harmful nowdayes.In those dayes it needed since he needes managers for spreading and maintaining .Also there was deffenetly mistakes but this is complitly natural for all living entites.

[harsi]

What (do you) suppose in your understanding (a) guru should do?

Like I wrote in my post on this forum "The Guru Within", since my posibilities to express myself in English or in Russian , I learned Russian in school while I was living back in the 1970is in Romania, are somehow limited, I prefer to find some texts somewhere on the Internet written by someone else with whose wording, (phrasing, choice of words) and conclusions (a position or opinion or judgment reached after consideration) I can best identify myself with. I guess that is what is happening in some way also when a man or woman choses someone as "guru" since that certain "guru" teachies or is phrasing his words, as well as living live, in such a way the "disciple" or follower can somehow best identify himself or herself with.

As I said, everyone has a Guru at some point. But once you are fully awakened, life itself becomes the ultimate Guru, and the teacher you most need to meet most is the one standing right in front of you. The process of receiving such teachings however is a process of letting go of the attachment to a being, and being open to the possibility that you can be taught by everything. It was then I realized what to me a Guru truly is; A teacher who leads you to the teachings that lead you home to yourself.

(Selfgrowth.com)
___

Someone wrote on the Internet in this regard, I will emphasise (give extra weight to) a communication I can best identify myself with.

"A discourse, given by Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakura Prabhupada himself. His discourse was given on the Vyasa-puja day of his own Guru Maharaja, Srila Gaura-kisora dasa Babaji Maharaja. It was taken from Rays of The Harmonist. Vol. II. No. I, printed in the 1990's.

ajnana-timirandhasya jnananjana-salakaya
caksur-unmilitam yena tasmai sri guruve namah

"Obeisances to Sri Gurudeva who has opened our sealed eyes, blinded by the darkness of ignorance, with the spike of the collyrium of knowledge."

Today is the day of the worship of Sri Guru, and I have come here today for this purpose. I am a person blinded by ignorance.

Ignorance is an object resembling darkness.

I am the servant of Visnu – I have no other function except the service of Visnu – this mode of thought is being obstructed by the darkness of nescience. I have become blind for the present.

Absence of light is darkness; absence of knowledge is ignorance.

The only knowledge is the darling of Nanda, who is replete with all knowledge. I, who am averse to the service of the darling of Nanda, am blind.

Darkness assuming form envelopes my eyes. It is for this reason that my function of vision is inoperative, and that there has appeared in me the tendency towards various other activities. By means of my senses – namely, hands, feet, eyes, ears, nose, tongue, and skin – I am engaged in a variety of work. Because of this, a multitude of diverse dangers confront me. By attempting to walk with these feet I often stumble and fall. By trying to discuss with this mind, I am invoking manifold evil by not being able to understand the real subject of knowledge.

In such an hour of peril, Sri Guru, being moved to pity, manifested in this world. This has been done in order that he may impart to me the knowledge that "You are the servant (In a subordinate position) of the darling of Nanda," and to dispel the darkness of ignorance.

My loss of sense of duty has led me to embark on the enjoyment of worldly objects, and to think such enjoyment is my duty. With this eye I see what is not my duty to see. I see only the bondage that obstructs me from my vision of He whom I ought to see by all means. By being deprived of His sight, I see only this bondage of material enjoyment.

The lotus feet (Figuratively Speaking - The lotus flower and her leafs although living in water remains untouched by water as the guru although living in this word of material ignorance remains seemingly untouched by it) of Sri Guru have imparted (passed on to me, told or gave information and knowledge) to me the light of spiritual knowledge, by removing that bondage of my eyes (figuratively - imparted to me the right understanding). Moving aside the bondage of my wrapped eyes and making the lids of my eyes open slightly, Gurudeva instructed me, saying, "Open your eyes a little and see."

All these days I had been thinking that I can see by keeping my eyes closed. (figuratively - meaning chosing to not adapt my understnding of things to fit more with the spiritual reality of things)

For this reason I am performing the duty of offering obeisances to the lotus feet of Sri Guru, by giving up my worldly vanity. This is the first object of offering my worship. To give up the vanity that thinks "I see," "I enjoy," is called "offering obeisances."

While I was cherishing the wicked notion that I am the master, Sri Guru opened my eyes and removed my misjudging judgment. I was following the blind, under the lead of the knowledge of other objects. The lotus feet of Sri Guru made me realize that it is my duty not to follow the blind. (figuratively - not following the wrong understanding)

I did not possess that judgment of worshipping the lotus feet of Sri Guru for many years. The service of Sri Guru is verily my only duty, the function of the principle of my individual self. This also I have been enabled to understand only by his grace.

After obtaining the sight of the lotus feet of Sri Guru, I have no longer such judgment that I have any other function except serving the feet of Sri Guru. (promote, benefit from the 'lotuslike' understanding he imperted to me)

By his mercy, that dearest servant (retainer, someone who follows the example given by...) of the Supreme Lord, in order to rescue me from the clutches of worldly vanity, made me cognizant of the service (work done by one person or group that benefits another) of the darling of Nanda. It was only at that moment that I could realize that there is no other function of the jiva's own self. There is no other blessing except the endeavor to please the senses of the darling of Nanda. He alone is both the only mode and the only goal of all my activities. Sri Guru is His most beloved.

The service to the lotus feet of Sri Guru cannot be performed by an unskilled person like me, by any of the instruments such as body, mind and speech. If Sri Guru infuses in me the power, or looks upon me with approval, then I can gain his favor, and I can then obtain the fitness for serving him.

I could understand the subject of the summum bonum only on the day Sri Guru placed his feet, which are obtainable with difficulty even by the gods, on the head of an unworthy person like myself and baptized me with their dust.

I then submitted to them the auspicious wish that I might be a fit recipient of the potency that is wielded by them.

In my vanity I could not fancy that the lotus feet of Sri Guru could be really so great. But if I narrate to you the good fortune attained by them, this may be conducive to the worship of Sri Guru by yourselves also.

Srila Krsnadasa Kaviraja Gosvami has prayed, "I am most unworthy. I am more sinful than Jagai and Madhai; more insignificant than the maggot germinating in filth. The goodness of the person who even chances to hear my name, wears off. He who even utters my name reaps sin. Who is there in this world to have mercy on me, with the single exception of Sri Nityananda Prabhu?"

I have no resources to show my gratitude towards one who has acted the part of the most merciful of all persons, for the purpose of conferring on such an unworthy person the gift of fitness. It is not possible for me to repay his kindness in any way.

Sri Guru is the counterpart of Godhead – possessing a singleness of purpose to serve Godhead. Every act of his is the highest ideal of the service of Godhead. As long as this vision suffers any impediment, the scales have not fallen from my eyes.

Unless we obtain the grace, unless we gain spiritual enlightenment, we cannot realize the greatness of his lotus feet. When I set myself to discourse regarding Sri Gurudeva, I find that he manifests himself in this world for the establishment of the heart's desire of Sri Caitanya, for rousing me into the waking state. Our previous acarya Thakura Narottama has revealed this: sri caitanya mano' bhistam stapitam yena bhutale / svayam rupah kada mahyam dadati sva-padantikam – "Oh, when will Sri Rupa himself, by whom the heart's desire of Sri Caitanya has been substantiated in this world, vouchsafe me the close proximity of his own feet?"

After I had the good fortune of obtaining the sight of the lotus feet of Sri Guru, I had the opportunity of discoursing about these words of the best of teachers, Thakura Narottama. The lotus feet of Sri Guru manifest in this world for establishing the heart's desire of Sri Caitanya.

What is the nature of the heart of Sri Caitanya? Sri Caitanyadeva had said, "The hearts of other persons are their minds. My mind is Vrndavana. I deem My mind and the divine woodland where Krsna loves to stroll as the same."

The holy Vrndavana is really the heart of Sri Gaurasundara. Only those who are saved from the clutches of evil can realize the nature of Sri Vrndavana. The word "abhista" in the verse of Thakura Narottama means literally "to desire in every way". He is referring to that which is desired by Caitanya in every way, that which Caitanya wills, and the teaching that He imparts for making the unconscious conscious. He prays, "When will Sri Rupa Gosvami Prabhupada, who has established this teaching of Caitanya in this world, place me in the close proximity of his lotus feet for the same service of the Lord?" The word "svayam rupa" may also mean "the personal form of the divinity, the darling of Nanda". In that case he prays, "When will Sri Krsnacandra, drawing my soul to His, take me to the proximity of His lotus feet?"

In Sri Krsna's personal form is concentrated the principles of real existence, consciousness and bliss. With this bag of bone and muscle, this carcass of flesh and blood which has been born of parents for the purpose of suffering pain, for undergoing the threefold-misery in the prison of this world, for my aversion to Krsna – with this bundle of flesh and bones one cannot go to His presence.

Nor is it possible to approach the proximity of the feet of the personal divinity with the current of mental thought engrossed in external objects of sensuous perception, in which there is consciousness of any other object than the darling of Nanda. When the external objects of this world – house, body, air, fruits and flowers, this whole world – tell me, "Master, we wish to serve you," then I think, "Very well, let me be the lord of these."

The air-god is an object of my highest worship. Inhaling him with my nose and fancying him to be an object for ministering to my pleasure, I try to absorb him into my lungs. Why? In order to maintain my life, I have conceived the desire of becoming the lord of my senses. I cannot understand that this eye is preventing me from seeing the unique and incomparable beauty of the darling of Nanda by holding external color and form; nor that the external sound is the obstacle of my catching the sound of Krsna's flute.

I am not able to find the strength to surmount this obstacle until Sri Guru, full of endless mercy, manifests himself to me. (imparting, giving me the right understanding)

I have been unable to feel any liking for the lotus feet of Sri Caitanya, the darling of Sri Nanda, and for the feet of Sri Rupa Gosvami – Sri Rupa Manjari – whose endeavors are fast bound to the lotus feet of Sri Caitanya. Alas! Indeed, where is another person whose fate is as blasted as mine?

Others work towards establishing the tidings of aversion to the darling of Nanda in this wicked world. But Sri Guru, the best beloved of Sri Caitanya, out of mercy, is trying to establish Sri Caitanya in my heart. When will the lotus feet of Sri Guru graciously allot me a place in their close proximity? When will Sri Guru make me enter the community of the followers of Rupa? When will the Vaisnavas, making me bathe in the shower of the dust of their feet, accept me as their servant? When shall I be able to behold that blessing, by bathing in the particles of feet-dust of the Vaisnavas – that blessing by which I shall be able to obtain the mercy of that beauteous person Himself?

Sri Baladeva Nityananda, who is the manifestation of Godhead's own Self, is Himself endeavoring to serve Krsna by cherishing that self conception.There can be no service of Gaura if one is enveloped by the faculty of aversion. Sri Guru is that very person who, focusing in himself the manifestation of Krsna's own transcendental form, is engaged in establishing the heart's desire of Sri Caitanya in this world.(for those who follow the example of Sri Caitanya)

Sri Krsna, Brahma, Narada, Vyasa, Madhva, Padmanabha, Nrhari, Madhava, Aksobhya, Jayatirtha, Jnanasindhu, Dayanidhi, Vidyanidhi, Rajendra, Jayadharma, Purusottama, Vyasatirtha, Laksmipati, Madhavendra, Isvara, Advaita, Nityananda, Isvara's "disciple" Sri Caitanya – this is the successive order of preceptors (teacher at a university or college in this case teacher of spiritual knowledge related to the Supreme.)

Sri Krsna has established the preceptorial order of this world. When will Krsna, drawing me into Himself, make me and object of His grace?

There is no function or object of endeavor for the individual soul, other than the service (an act of help or assistance) of Sri Radha-Govinda. I have observed this judgment and conduct only by the mercy of my Sri Guru. The worship of other gods, and so on, is also not the object of the endeavor of the individual soul.

The heart's desire of Sri Caitanya alone is also the limit of the desire of the individual soul. Words on any other subject are only a contrivance for the production of evil. This teaching also has been imparted by Sri Guru alone. Sri Guru is serving the darling son of Nanda at all times, by all senses, in every way. There is no other function of Sri Guru even for the space of a single moment, than such service. Unless we behold this, we do not really accept the protecting guidance of Sri Guru.

The darling son of Nanda, who is the sole object of worship by means of His centripetal attraction, has kept the attracted so effectively drawn towards Him that they do not experience any other desire. Such service is the only natural function of the soul.

We, who are empowered by the limiting energy (maya) (having a somehow wrong understanding of things), by the idea that we are not predominated parts of the divinity, are being engrossed by His deluding external power.

What endless variety of pretences have been put before us by the deluding energy in order to seduce us to the ambition of lording it over the material world, to impress on us that we have need of this connection with matter! The deluding energy has been appearing before us like a harlequin wearing a variety of masks.

We belong to the class of servants, as particles of the predominated energy of Godhead. We are not the concentrated or plenary forms of the predominated power. We shall lapse into the worship of the form of the false ego if we cherish the offensive desire of masquerading as the holy concentrated forms of power, by giving up the inclination of serving Godhead by submission to the true concentrated personalities of power.

We are dis-associable particles. If we are not separable, how else can we learn to be averse to Sri Hari? These manifold misunderstandings have appeared in me by reason of my cherishing the idea that Sri Guru, the best beloved of the bestower of freedom from ignorance, has no relationship of kindred with me. I think that these misunderstandings are my enemies.

Those who help me towards the aptitude for service of Krsna are my only friends. Those who help me augment my aversion to Krsna are my most deadly enemies. Forgetting this judgment I become busy with activities for procuring vegetables, fish, fuel, and so on, for the maintenance and nourishment of those kindred of mine who are averse to Krsna. Forgetfulness of the service of the lotus feet of Sri Guru, the best beloved of the bestower of freedom from worldly bondage, is the cause of this. Continued...

[kamalamala1]

ajnana-timirandhasya jnananjana-salakaya
caksur-unmilitam yena tasmai sri guruve namah

I can add my quote about guru
Most of so called gurus nowdayes succesfuly closing the eye of knowlage and even cuting up the heads of there desciples puting them in more ignorense then there was before.


If Guru is not real mistyc then he is useles and even can be very harmful.
GauraKishora das babaji was real mistyc{as well as i suppose Bhactisidhanta Sarasvaty and Prabhupad} i like him very much all his life was oposit for wath Iscon is doing nowdayes.
Read his biography you will see that he himself never considered him guru or sanyasy he never cared about all this artifitial designations more then that he was very much affraid to come in comtct with people who considering him some kind of authorirty since he felth inpure energy in that comunication he is real person not all the bogus guru buissnessmens .
He even didnt made any initiatioon even didnt initiate Bhactisidhanta Sarasvaty.
By the way if it is possible can you tell me when Gaurokishora das Babaji appointed Bhaktisidhanta sarasvati Guru and same when Bhaktisidhanta Sarasvati apointed Prabhupad Guru please help i cannot realy find such episod in there life.
And 100% it is not possible that anyone appoint GauraKisora Das Babaji Guru since he doesnt need to be apointed ata all and will not accept such thing by any means
so make your own conclusions all this Guru thing absolutly artifitial.
And it made for managment .
The real Guru is real mistyc and when people feel his mistyc power they accepting him as a teacher not that he is apointed or something like that.

[kamalamala1]

Today Hari answered o n many points in his broadcast if you heared it attantivly
He also told that Prabhupad realy doesnt take seriously the guru things he was just playing the role i am sure for some purpose..

[harsi]

And the whole energy is different and the methodology. Prabhupada definitely was most concetrated on spreading.

Prabhupada was, as he told many times in his conversations, very eager to follow Sri Caitanya and spread the teachings of Sri Krishna far and wide to wherever he may happen to live. In this way he was indeed engaged in what Sri Caitanya was 'ordering' his followers to do. "yāre dekha, tāre kaha kṛṣṇa-upadeśa āmāra ājñāya guru hañā tāra' ei deśa - Instruct everyone to follow the orders of Lord Śrī Kṛṣṇa as they are given in the Bhagavad-gītā and Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam. In this way become a spiritual master and try to liberate everyone in this land." (CC. Madhya-lila 7.128)

I was reading recently an article written by Danavir Goswami where he writes what Prabhupada should have told ones to his disciples in Africa: "This time I have requested all Nairobi important friends that "Now you take sannyasa and become guru. Krsna Caitanya Mahaprabhu asked everyone to become guru. amara ajnaya guru hana tara ei desa. You have come to Africa. Now become their guru and deliver them."Now, how shall I do it?" yare dekha, tare kaha krsna-upadesa: "Simply speak. Don't become very big upstart. Simply speak what Krsna has done. That's all. You become guru."(Prabhupada Lecture: December 20, 1975) There is an entire lecture given by Srila Prabhupada in which he told his disciples, or rather, insisted that his disciples become gurus. Here's an excerpt. "To become spiritual master is not very difficult thing. You'll have to become spiritual master. You, all my disciples, everyone should become spiritual master." www.rvc.edu/news - Isn't Hari trying to do the same in his own particular way?

By the way, if it is possible, can you tell me when (did) Gaurakishora das Babaji appointed Bhaktisidhanta Sarasvati (to be) Guru and (the) same when (did) Bhaktisidhanta Sarasvati apointed Prabhupada (to be) Guru? Please help, I cannot realy find such (an) episode in their life. And (to) 100% it is not possible that annyone appointed Gaurakisora Das Babaji (as) Guru since he doesn't need to be appointed at all and will not accept such (a) thing by any means - so make your own conclusions all this Guru thing (is) absolutelly artificial.

Its interesting what the Sikhs write on one of their website: "The Sikh notion of a saint or prophet is called a guru, meaning one who can offer salvation, and deliver a soul from darkness, into light. The Sikh religion formed over a period of about 300 years. During this time ten gurus offered guidance to the Sikhs. Sikhism teaches that divine light infused the gurus with spiritual inspiration. Each illuminated master contributed individual concepts, philosophies, and ethics, to the Sikh religion. At the time of death, each guru appointed a successor. Guru Gobind Singh named the Sikh scripture, Guru Granth, as his successor. The light divine passed from guru to guru, and now resides eternally with Guru Granth, the Sikh scripture." » Sikhism.about.com

Some people claimed in the past that Prabhupada appointed also some of his diciples to be his successors for the society he founded, whereas some argue that he would remain also in his physical absence a guru for those who follow and apply his teachings in their life. In this way they claim that Prabhupada would be a kind of allknowing being or a kind of Jesus Christ for those who follow in his footstepps.

Regarding your question reffering to Bhaktisidhanta Saraswati Thakura, as far as I know it was so that his father Bhaktivinoda Thakura told, or ordered him that he should ask for initiation from Gaurakisora das Babaji. Since at that time in Bengal he considered only him to be fit, pure or able to initiate his son on the spiritual path. A man or babaji he knew also personally. You may know the story where the young Bhaktisidhanta Saraswati, I don't remember now his name as a young man, came to Gaurakisora and asked him for initiation. Gaurakisora das Babaji knew he was the son of the well-known Bhaktivinoda Thakura, a governor or judge or so, at that time in West Bengal, and was considering himself not fit to initiate him although the young Bhaktisiddhanta insisted many times that he should give him his spiritual shelter.

On the Internet one can read: "In 1901 Bhaktivinoda Thakura requested his son to become initiated in the Gayatri mantra and accept a spiritual master. The Thakura had one beloved disciple (actually he was just attending sometimes the public lectures of Bhaktivinoda), Gaurakisora dasa Babaji, a very renowned Vaishnava saint of Navadvipa. It was therefore he who the Thakura requested his son to take initiation from. Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakura then approached the babaji for getting initiated, but Gaurakisora dasa Babaji, who hadn’t any disciples, out of his infinite humbleness refused to accept such an erudite pandita as Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati, when he himself could not even write his own name. So, disappointed, Sarasvati Thakura went back to his father and related to him what had happened, but Thakura Bhaktivinoda sent him out again, and again Srila Bhaktisiddhanta came back with the same news. So this time the Thakura told his son, ”Unless you take initiation from Gaurakishora dasa Babaji your life is useless and no longer may you enter this house“. (more)

Being refused for many times by Gaurakisora, the young Bhaktisidhanta decided to end his life considering himself so useless and not worth of getting the spiritual shelter of this Babaji. It was just before he wanted to jump of a bridge into death that he heared the voice of Gaurakisora who was following him from behind, feeling or becoming aware of the seriousness of this young boy to get initiation by him, and that he would do something to his life if he would continue to refuse to give him his spiritual shelter and initiate him on the bhakti path. Gaurakisora shouted to him from behind he should stopp to jump into death, since he was reconsiderring his plea to initiate him, what he also did later on, or as far as I know right there on the spot. In this way Bhaktisidhanta became the only disciple of that particular Babaji from West Bengal which Bhaktivinoda Thakura considered fit to give initiation to his son. I think it is so in this tradition that a father cannot initiate his own son in the Bhakti-marga rather has to recommend or advise him to take shelter from someone else outside of the family.

[Nanda-grama]

When I read this discussion I think -indeed is it not dully for you? Prabhupada did something best what he could do in that circumstances and in that time in what he lived. He did many very good things and, may be, he did some mistakes. But now it hasn't big meaning for us, nobody doesn't compel us to sing Guru-pudja for him every morning. If somebody love him, and if anybody doesn't love him-it is their affair.Nobody of us did not know him personally, but when I look a video with Prabhupada, I understand that he was very, very unusual and attractive personality and he had very powerful influence on people. People had their own reasons to give their lifes to Prabhupada. He used his influence in order to teach people something good and he attained this goal. This sistem of worship or other hardened religious forms were created by his less talented and less influential followers in order to support their own power. I think that during time of Prabhupada all was more dynamical, more spontaneously, was founded more on inspiration and on sincerity, and it was less like sect. Otherwise could such freedom-loving and clever man as Hari go to ISSCON? Indeed when Hari was in ISSCON and when at the first time I came to ISSCON there was this mad spirit and all was very interestingly. But then it began to harden and to become dogma and sect.

[kamalamala1]

Dear Harshiji this is only prooving that i was right.
Since this story only showes that Gaura Kishora das Babaji doesnt care about initiation but care about life of Bhaktisidhanta.
The theory that he needs that Bahktisidhanta prove his decision is very childish and is concocted ,since GauraKishora Babali
knew well that Bhaktisidhanta doesnt need any initiation .is nt it abvious.?