God as only enjoyer?

[harsi]

It is good that you after so many years now trying to be sincerely towards yourself and questioning everything. I appreciate that...

That is what constitutes spiritual evolution, an ever-evolving process of growing and perceiving yourself and others among Us, including the Supreme, anew...





And also our honored Aradhya is right in that in order for you to be able to learn the tools and techniques of spiritual growth you should behave in such a way as to gain the grace and favour of someone who knows, a teacher, a guide or by whatever name you would want to denote that knowledgeable and realised person you have confidence in.

Now here exist two ways how this confidence is practiced by those seeking the grace and favour of such wise man. One is with a certain hidden agenda, or ulterior motives, where one considers a certain person to be as good as God (a matter of interpretation) and the other one is by adressing and seeking the advise of such a person out of love and appreciation for that person without such ulterior motives. And expressing ones thankfullnes towards that person for doing that.

The person who approaches such a person with the hidden agenda does it only as long he is considering that this person might fulfill his agenda (what he had in mind by approaching that person) and as long as he or she spot a certain descripancy in the behaviour or the teaching of that person he put confidence in according to his/her hidden agenda, which one considers to not be in line with what one had in mind by approaching that particular person, one turns away and leaves that person, considering that person to be "fallen" or as not befitting anymore ones anticipated purpose (its similar to a business engagement). That is because in ones mind one had a certain expectation for that person, one was not interested just in that person and the teaching, the knowledge he gave and was letting you know - the spiritual experience that person shared with you.

In the Bhakti tradition the term "as good as God" is viewed in a certain way and in the Advaita tradition (more prevalent in India nowadays) one understands it in another way. But both traditions have in common a certain expectation, a certain hidden agenda, when approaching a person they might consider to be fit according to that agenda they might have in mind. The bhakti tradition with its concept of beeing a perfect servant of God (according to their interpretation of that term) and in the Advaita tradition of having become a full represantation of God Supreme (whatever they mean by that term which varies also in their circles) and from which one expects to get also a glimpse or a share of that divine, that divinity and its fullness. (Tat tvam asi, - I am that - om tat sat ,or aham brahmasmi, one can read always while chatting with this kind of persons on some discussion groups on Facebook for example)

I became aware of and experienced that there are followers of both traditions who can be very authoritative oriented and small-minded in their understanding and in how they are approaching the other. There seem to be few people who are aligned also more towards pluralism, or diversity, who have a pragmatic approach towards this and the (spiritual) purpose of life, the way I prefer it. In their small-mindedness some people and followers in both traditions can argue with you very illiberal, considering that just their approach is, or would be, the right one and that people who would view it also in some other way, would be somehow in illusion about themselves and the truth "as it is", or rather "as it is considered to be" by them. As someone wrote in a comment to me ones: "To (me - he wrote his name), the words of the Sages/ Knowers/ Scriptures are sacrosanct, as are (... a well known spiritual personality from India) words above." This man is a firm advocate of the onenes or advaita aspect or version of the supreme truth.

Now the way I see it is that both traditions and views carry within them a spark of truth. When you have that approach you can take some advise from wherever and whomever you meet, and grow and evolve in your understanding, your perception, your cognition about yourself, and God. This is so since you give honor also to yourself and consider yourself in essence also as a (integral, complete) part of that Supreme which you (your true essence) would have to express with integrity in your daily living. "Which is the whole struggle I feel that we all face every day, and in every way" as Hari put it ones in that conversation we both attended in St. Petersburg in 2010.

Hari: "So, what is most interesting I find, is that it´s very easy to experience what we are. I don´t even call it self-realization because it´s not a realization, it´s simply accepting our experience of what we are. Accepting ourselves and getting rid of, or letting go of things that are not, by simply recognizing what you are, and therefore recognizing what you are not, letting go of what we are not, accepting what we are, and than when you accept what you are, the expressions you make will be directly coming from the essence. They will be an attempt to maintain your integrity as essence in the world in which you live; which is the whole struggle I feel that we all face every day, and in every way." (...)

[harsi]

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God and the soul according to the various authors in Wikipedia. See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brahman



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Snapshots with software from: http://www.postimage.org - See: Wikipedia.org, Supremeknowledge.org, Vedabase.net

[kamalamala1]

Yes
Hari Om Tat Sat
I want to continue the isue i begin.
You know Father and ecspesially Mother so much happy when there chiild enjoying is nt it.
because they love him or her and wath can be better then to see that your child is really happy is nt it?
But wath doing sects (and big ones as cristians and islam also) they are saying that Father and Mother only like when you are confesing when you are alwayes feeling that you are sinful and fallen and you should be in total fear alwayes even towards your so called guru.
And wath have this to do with real spirituality with Divine ?
Isnt it funny the sects doing all to full the soul of there members with total fear and then all day long they are speaking about love?
Ecspesially funny so called loving relationships between so called Gurus and students
Studants so much in fear infront of there Gurus and this is called bhakti wich mean love
Totall rasa bhasa

[kamalamala1]

From the other side fear is good for rscals and criminals
for ones who have bad intentions towards themself and others so kne can make decicion
Maybe religions and sects was dealing mainly with criminals and rascals

[harsi]

And what have this to do with real spirituality ...

In this we are in complete agreement, Kamalamala. All this things you described above have not much to do with the natural features essential to our essence of being which are defining, or constitude, that what "real spirituality" is or should be all about. Or to put it in another way, all this may not be truely suitable for characterizing our essence of being, us, the spirit soul. There is, or may be, more to it than just some "feelings" of beeing "sinful and fallen," or being overcome with fear in front of someone one may consider to be more pure or superior to oneself - which he may nevertheless be in some way of his / her own, since we do, and may, vary from individual to individual in many regards. But as someone said this days in a lecture I watched, which was streamed on the Internet, we all have also something very essential to our true nature in common, something we all should become more aware of:

"There is a reason and a purpose to life, and it has nothing to do with what you are doing. It has everything to do with what you are beeing while you are doing whatever you are doing. And one day when everything you are doing emerges from the agenda of your soul, rather than the thoughts of your mind, all the things that you are doing will be an expression of divinity in physical form. This is the ultimate change, and the change is called transformation."

[harsi]

Let us continue in this respect, Kamalamala. You write that a father and especially a mother would be happy when their child is joyous and happy too, due to their feeling of love for their child. That comes naturally due to the fact that they might view the child as beeing one of them. Especially the mother may feel that unity and oneness.

I find interesting what someone wrote in this regard you may want to discuss here also.



He writes further: "God’s Greatest Desire is to experience Divinity in its Fullest Form. That Fullest Form does not include struggle and suffering. You are not required to experience negativity in any form in order for God to experience Divinity in every form. God understands that everything arising is an invitation for Divinity to express itself at its next highest level. You may understand this, too, at a theoretical level, yet even though you are a divine being, you are not all that God is, and so of course it is understandable that while God does not experience suffering, you may.

A drop of the ocean is water, for sure, but it is not The Ocean. Yet compared to a submolecular particle, a drop of water might as well be The Ocean—such is its relative size and power as it rolls through a submolecular particle field. And as the drop of water is to the ocean, so are you to God. This means that you have divine power proportionate to your size. And that means that you possess divine power proportionate to your problems. The problems that each of us face every day, considered within the entire Contextual Field in which God exists, are surely minuscule.

Indeed, within that context they are not “problems” at all, but merely “conditions.” Yet for every one of us our biggest problems feel, understandably (and appropriately), very large. They are, after all, being encountered by us; they are not being encountered by God. Or are they . . . ?



The message here is that we are larger than we think—and our problems are smaller in relationship to us (!) than we imagine. Mystics and sages have said for ages that life never sends us a problem too large for us to handle. They are right. And groups of us, working together, have enough power to overcome every problem that groups of us have created. All we have to do is decide to.

And so in our own personal space, and in the environment collectively created by the lot of us, we are, in a sense, deities (divine beings), even as a drop of water is an “ocean” in the space of a submolecular particle."

[harsi]

I commented to the above statement of this particular author on his Facebook site: "If God lives in us, that would be true. And God does live within us, so it is true." Nicely expressed. In this sense the two of us can well sense also a harmonious togetherness, or feeling of oneness, as the one who may have found themselves in love and devotion for each other. Much more natural and comprehensible is also the idea and the vision that "...even though you are a divine being, you are not all that God is" in essence. I find that when you thus accept what you are, the expressions you make will be directly coming from the essence, they will be an attempt to maintain our integrity as essence in the world in which we live. (By the way the last sentence I reproduced exactly the way Hari said it to us ones, which makes quite good sense to me as well.)

[kamalamala1]

I agree with your coment

By the way i want to add that in all we are doing in life ecspesialy in spirituality the most important is the FREE WILL
without that everything is usless and ugly
You cannot love by order you can love only by your own personal free will, you cannot be in real ofservice by order you can serve only by free will other wise it is slave service
you cannot realy look for truth by order or write real music it will be fals and with twisted energy without free will
and you cannot sell your soul and your free will
Unfortunatly all religiouns and ecspesially all sects ecspesially the ones with havvy guru concepts taking away this MOST most important let us say FEELING of FREE WiLL
And it is complitly realy hindering the natural unecpectable evolution of soul
Demones need Slaves they are trying to make evrybody slave even in there spirituality
God and Gods doesnt need slaves Mother and father doesnt need slave children

[kamalamala1]

I agree with your coment

By the way i want to add that in all we are doing in life ecspesialy in spirituality the most important is the FREE WILL
without that everything is usless and ugly
You cannot love by order you can love only by your own personal free will, you cannot be in real ofservice by order you can serve only by free will other wise it is slave service
you cannot realy look for truth by order or write real music it will be fals and with twisted energy without free will
and you cannot sell your soul and your free will
Unfortunatly all religiouns and ecspesially all sects ecspesially the ones with havvy guru concepts taking away this MOST most important let us say FEELING of FREE WiLL
And it is complitly realy hindering the natural unecpectable evolution of soul
Demones need Slaves they are trying to make evrybody slave even in there spirituality
God and Gods doesnt need slaves Mother and father doesnt need slave children

[kamalamala1]

religions and sects and gurus by inserting fear in the hearths of there followers taking away the
foundation of evolution,of life,of spirituality
FREE WILL

[harsi]

In my understanding and experience it is so that whatever you do and say is an expression of you and your own personality. There exists never a time, a place, a society or a community, where you cannot express your free will. No one can ever take away or prevent you from expressing your own free will and from making any important decisions in your life on your own. Even if it is so that by expressing your free will in a certain society or community you are in, you would face certain consequences you would not like, and thus you would not do it, you are the one who is deciding to do so. So again its your own decision and free will to not express it the way you would want it because you either fear something you may not want, or you look forward and hope to get something out of doing (or not doing) so in the future.

I would like to share with you, Kamalamala, in this regard also a very apropriate description of what I find that true love is. "Its not love in the egoic sense. If you can equate space, god, consciousness, stillness, as unconditional love, which it is, because if you are the space of consciousnes, the holder, this frequeency holder of god consciousness, its unconditional love." God is love. You are, can be and expres, that love also. The video where Kim Eng, the life partner of Eckhart Tolle, explains this so nicely one can wattch on Youtube: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FvzSXrw30zY

[kamalamala1]

Oh no Harshi how you can say that
Whole history of so called civilisation of human kind tell the opposite
Just remember how many people was cheated by church and other religions also
Millions and millions lost there free will because of one person or a system
Do you think that millions of German soldiers was killing so many people and women's and children's out of there on free will
Or Russian soldiers was horribly killing so many poor Afghanistan people I know people who was on that war they have order and they was forcibly filled with drugs and alcohol same USA soldiers did in Vietnam
Just remember the Cristian wars for holly land
Most of people doing things not our of there will but others
So many people lost there free will for such a rascals like Chingis khan and Napoleon
Especially pity in the case with spirituality since people coming there on the way of searching truth and they was assured by religions and sects that they will get what they looking for but
unfortunately it is not at all so they becoming the path of exploitation system and that all
It is like this, you have free will to get into the wild mountain river and if you doesn't see that river where you get into you can louse your free will in this lifetime since you will not be able to get out

[harsi]

If you mean, as I can understand from the many examples you give from history, that people are prevented in some way from exercising their freedom of choice than you are entering the realm of politics and the way society was and may or may have been organized in certain countries.

It seems to me that you equate "free will" with that freedom of choice which one would loose under, or in certain circumstances. But what I mean with the free will which is inherent to all of us spiritual beings, goes much deeper than that, namely in the realm of the spiritual essence of life.

Persons who express their inherent free will from that platform of being are the one who do and can change the world for the better for all of us. There were many people in the course of history who did that against all odds. Jesus Christ for example was one of them, who expressed his divinely inspired free will in his own way without having, or expressing any feelings of revenge, or hatred, or negativity against someone. He even asked and begged God to forgive them since they would not know what they were doing, as he put it. Or take Haridas Thakura who was sentenced by the Muhamedan Kazi to be beaten in twenty two market places because he expressed his free will according to his own choice and did not wanted to give that up. He even told the Kazi: "Everyone acts as he is inspired by the Lord, as also do I."

Or take that person from more recent history from South Africa, Nelson Mandela. He was imprisoned for 25 years because he dreamed and promoted for a social reality in his country of birth which should give equal opportunities of living and working together for all people irrespective of race, colour, sex, religion, political opinion or social origin. When he was freed from imprisonment he became his countries president and made that what he always dreamed of a reality in his own unmistakable way. Without any feelings of revenge or hatred towards anybody, he declared a general amnesty and led by example the citizens of his country in that social reality he always imagined to manifested all those many years before. That is what I call acting with integrity. With integrity to the core values by which one may, or may want to, direct ones life, each in his or her own way, in whatever society of people one may happen to live around the world.

[kamalamala1]

You Know i was thinking last dayes about free will isue and free choises
First of all i think that in the most cases free chouis is a result of free will and they are not different in core.
But i was thinking wath free will or free choises we have in this life?
Most of the people from the birthday doesnt have free choises and they cannot use there free will.
Since they are totally when they are children under the control of parents.
Then when they are more or less independant they are still under the control of cicumstanses ,goverment, society, and havy tv inet and books propoganda,and most of all a lot of time under the total control of lust in the young stage and different subtle energyes? and also at last all kind of religions..
So very rare people realy have choises to reveale there own free will
You see wath happening in Eourope people used they think there free will and whole society became crasy now they want to give
childrens to the geys
So it is quite complicated this free will isue

[harsi]

So very rare people have choises to reveal their own free will. You see what (is) happening in Europe, ... now they want to give children to the guys.

Dear Kamalamala, you disclose yourself to be not such a liberally oriented person than many western-oriented and liberal political forces around Europe. France hosted its first same-sex wedding on this Wednesday, under new legislation which legalised gay marriage. (See ITN video) And indeed France went with its new legislation further than Germany and 12 other countries from around the world who legalised same sex marriages. It´s one of the first countries in the world where the same sex ´marriage´ is conceded equal treatment with the one between persons of opposite sex. The same tax advantages and also the legal right to adopt children.

Well, why not? If it makes them happy (joyous) and whole. You may know the ancient Chinese saying: "May you live in interesting times." Here in Germany the adopting of a child by a same sex couple is allowed just in rare, exceptional cases. In the media one could read how a well known guy pop singer was allowed to adopt a young boy, but the same sex couples do not have the same tax advantages as the couples of persons of opposite sex.