Harimedia Forum

Janus wrote:

"If one finds that one still wants to enjoy material nature but was unfamiliar with his own desires well enough to stop him from taken oaths that he took, then I believe that a simple apology is sufficient to release one from the reactions to everything that he promissed not to do, but insufficient to protect him from everything that he may have did that brough harm to others. Again, this is only my opinion."

And I wonder why would the Supreme Lord, from Whom we may all have come from, spiritually seen, may have wanted that one should live his whole existence under someones guardianship. Do you really think that to be under someones guardianship, who would be himself under the gardianship of someone else should or could have been that what the Supreme envisioned for us, His spirit parts and parcels.

I have my doubts in this direction, because even the parents in this world whant that their "children" should stand ones on their own feet. But maybe you can dispel, this my doubts, in a convincing manner.

harsi wrote: And I wonder why would the Supreme Lord, from Whom we may all have come from, spiritually seen, may have wanted that one should live his whole existence under someones guardianship. Do you really think that to be under someones guardianship, who would be himself under the gardianship of someone else should or could have been that what the Supreme envisioned for us, His spirit parts and parcels.

I have my doubts in this direction, because even the parents in this world whant that their "children" should stand ones on their own feet. But maybe you can dispel, this my doubts, in a convincing manner.

I am not sure exactly what you mean by your question. If you are meaning to use the word "gaurdian" as some sort of director, or dictator, allways demanding that we act in such ways as that satisfy his self interests, then "no". We already have our senses doing than, but hopefully the mind is in control of them, not the other way around, and we have our own built in "gaurdian", our discrimination to direct us in our choices.
Parents are always a useful analogy, they always (or should always) wish to provide their children with protection, even drom themselves when their own discrimination has not yet developed to the point that we can decide always what choices best to chose that will help us in attaining to the purpose of human life, which is to be frre of the diffulties, to enjoy our lives, grow old gracefully, and exit the world for whatever destiny awaits us, which will hopefully be at least a step up, or, in the minds of religious families, some eternal freedom from the problems whuch are ultimately without solution from the material perspective.
Nature does not have to insist, can blow for half a morning, rain for half a day. Krsna is no different, He gives His opinion. makes known what He considers best, and leaves us to determine for ourselves what to do with our lives.
A "gaurdian" or "director", or "guru' in the Krsna consciousness sense is only there as an instructor until the time when we have attained to the highest value of that tradition that we have entered into, which are, in the case of traditions claiming of themselves to be transcendental, liberation from birth,disease, old age and death, and beyond that, in traditions that are also theistic, to our establishment within the pastimes of Krsna in our self realized identities. After that, they smile and perhaps shake our hands or in the case of Satan, or as you call her; Mayadevi, opologize to us, and then we just become each others friends, or whatever else we are in our eternal relationships.
Once one has developed to the point that one does not need to go into the temple to see Krsna, one can see Krsna everywhere, there is then no need to visit a temple, except to associate with others there.
The problem is that before we have attained to the degree of knowledge that provides us the ability to see things (including ourselves) clearly, we are likely to make mistakes, not being able to see things as they actually are, and perhaps even wanting them to be some way that they are not, but which they may seem to be to us. How do we direct out souls activities if we are not even aware that we have a soul, that we are a soul? How do we gaurd ourselves against our own worst enemies when we think of them as our most well wishing friends. The blind cannot lead the blind succesfully to sef realization and those who have no love of God cannot communicate to us a love for Him that they do not themselves possess. Is that what you meant my friend?

Janus wrote:

"I am not sure exactly what you mean by your question"

I translate from german to english and sometimes like in this case it becomes difficult for me to put the right words in writing which are reflecting also what I want to communicate. We have in german the saying "jemanden bevormunden" which means that you are allways thinking and behaving in regard to someone, as if you would know better, what is good for him, and thus never allow the other person to become himself or herself mature in life, and to thus take his life in his own hands, even in a "spiritual" sense would I say.

But you explained nicely that you also are considering that one should also use ones own power of discrimination in ones actions in life. So we are here of the same opinion. And I presume that those on this forum are no beginners in their spiritual understanding in life, so therefore I am of the opinion, that we are or should be mature enough even in a "spiritual" sense to make our own decissions now on our spiritual journey, even if we may use the knowledge and guidance of those who are already a little bit more far in this matter, or moore knowledgable, or have become somehow more spiritual aware in this matter. But neverseless, I think that does not free us from our own responsability to come ones ourself to that position in life, where we can stand spiritualy speaking on our own bottom or feet. Thats my understanding of spiritual progress.

"The blind cannot lead the blind succesfully to self realization and those who have no love of God cannot communicate to us a love for Him that they do not themselves possess. Is that what you meant my friend?"

I wonder what your understanding is regarding love of God, do you think that is something else than the love one may experience otherwise among each other? I mean we are all also of the same kind of spiritual nature as the Supreme, arent we?

harsi wrote:
We have in german the saying "jemanden bevormunden" which means that you are allways thinking and behaving in regard to someone, as if you would know better, what is good for him, and thus never allow the other person to become himself or herself mature in life, and to thus take his life in his own hands, even in a "spiritual" sense would I say.?

I would think that from the osition of the uttama-adhikari, that he doesn't think that he knows what is best for us, but that he knoes what is best for us, and that he knows how to guide us to bring us to the only position in which we can actually be ourselves. Otherwise we are product and product of a material conditioning (subtle and gross) which masks our true individuality.

quote="harsi"]But you explained nicely that you also are considering that one should also use ones own power of discrimination in ones actions in life. ?[/quote]

One must learn to discriminate, later on when one becomes spiritually developed one's spiritual sensibilities awaken and one can tell the difference between a carrot that has been offered to Krsna, and one that has not, without being told. Similarly one can see who is spiritually advanced and who is not. But this is not to minimalize the strength of the mind which is, in the beginning, the only means by which we can discriminate.

quote="harsi"]So we are here of the same opinion. ?[/quote]And I presume that those on this forum are no beginners in their spiritual understanding in life,[/quote]

"No student will ever make any progress in spiritual development who flits from system to system!"
Dion Fortune, The Mystical Qabalah, Ch 2. The Choice of a Path

Fortune, a student and Initiate of the Golden Dawn system of Magic, and the foundet of her own Society of the Inner Light, still active today, wrote this sometime in the 1930’s, principly for me to read before I joined the Hare Krsna movement in the early 1970’s. This has nothing to do with false egoism, but with the principle of Guru, which Dr. Leary wrote about in his preface to Robert Anton Wilson’s Cosmic Trigger, Vol. I, The Final Secret of the Illuminati, but don’t forget Fortune, she has much more to say:

"For a system of spiritual development to be applicable in the West it must fulfill certain well defined requirements. To begin with, its elementary technique must be such that it is readily grasped by minds that have in them nothing of the mystic. Secondly, the forces it brings to bear to stimulate the development of the higher aspects of consciousness must be sufficiently powerful and concentrated to penetrate the relatively dense vehicles of the average Westerner, who makes nothing whatever of subtle vibrations. Thirdly, as few Europeans, following a racial dharma of material development, have either the opportunity or the inclination to lead the life of a recluse, the forces employed must be handled in such a way that can be made available during the brief periods that the modern man or woman can, at the commencement of the Path, snatch from their daily avocations to give to the pursuit"

"Born of the Blood is Best, but Second Best by Initiation"

You may have noticed that throughout Prabhupada's book that when he speaks of mystic yogi's, etc. that he never refers to them as being of the West, that is because here those traditions which developed them were ruthlessly stamped out. Fortune makes some good points, especially about the lack of sensibilities in the West to subtle vibrations. Those programs of our conditioning run on automatic and prevent the development of nueronal pathpays in the developing childs brain from allowing him or her to perceive such things as the voices of trees, animals, and even the elements, what to mention being able to understand them. Even in the Neo-Pagan communities anmd in the several Wiccan covens that I shepard, there are few who can ride across a snowfield perched high atop a rabbits ear, few who can step out of their skins as easily as they step out of their clothes/ It is a cult and culture of estrangement in which we need cards to remind us of what the seasons feel, and feel that we must licence love, like a dog, in order to trust it.
What Fortune thought to be the nature of our Western Dharma is in reality only a product of a conditioning that began with the Greco-Roman Atomist Mechanists and reached its height in the Machine Age World View.

harsi wrote:...so therefore I am of the opinion, that we are or should be mature enough even in a "spiritual" sense to make our own decissions now on our spiritual journey, even if we may use the knowledge and guidance of those who are already a little bit more far in this matter, or moore knowledgable, or have become somehow more spiritual aware in this matter. But neverseless, I think that does not free us from our own responsability to come ones ourself to that position in life, where we can stand spiritualy speaking on our own bottom or feet. Thats my understanding of spiritual progress.,

Your life is yours, to do with as you please, to serve what or whom you will, or no one or nothing. What God has given let no man take away. You are responible for yourself, free to determine what best to do, but should you choose to surrender yourself to a guru's or teachers guidance, know that even the best may cheat you.

Sanjaya uvaca
Naham veda vyavasitam
Pitror vah kula-nandana
Gandharya va maha-baho
Musito’ smi mahatmabhih

Sanjaya said: My dear descendant of the Kuru dynasty, I have no information of the determination of your two uncles and Gandhari, O king, I have been cheated by those great souls.

PURPORT
That great souls cheat others may be astonishing to know, but it is a fact that great souls cheat others for a great cause. It is said that Lord Krsna also advised Yudhisthira to tell a lie before Dronacarya, and it was also for a great cause. The Lord wanted it, and therefore it was a great cause. Satisfaction of the Lord is the criterion of one who is bona fide, and the highest perfection of life is to satisfy the Lord by one’s occupational duty. That is the verdict of Gita and Bhagavatam. Dhrtarastra and Vidura, followed by Gandhari, did not disclose their determination to Sanjaya, although he was constantly with Dhrtarastra as his personal assistant. Sanjya never thought that Dhrtarastra could peform any act without consulting him. But Dhrtarastra’s going away from home was so confidential that it could not be disclosed even to Sanjaya, Sanatana Goswami also cheated the keeper of his prison house while going away to see Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu, and similarly Raghunatha dasa Goswami also cheated his priest and left home for good. To satisfy the Lord, anything is good, for it is in relation to the Absolute Truth. We also had the same opportunity to cheat the family members and leave home in the service of Srimad Bhagavatam. Such cheating was necessary for a great cause, and there is no loss for any party in such transcendental fraud."

SB Canto 1, Ch 13, Txt 37 & purport

Fortune goes on to state:

"Whoever has any practical experience of the different methods of spiritual development knows that the method must fit the temperament, and that it must also be adapted to the grade of development of the student. Westerners, especially such as prefer the occult to the mystic Path, often come seeking initiation at a stage of spiritual development which an Eastern guru would consider exceedingly immature."

As to one "flitting about," from tradition to tradition; Fortune says:

"If we intend to take our occult studies seriously and make of them anything more than desultory light reading, we must choose our system and carry it out faithfull until we arrive, if not at its ultimate goal, at any rate at definite practical results and a permanent enhancement of consciousness. After this has been achieved we may, not without advantage, experiment with the methods that have been developed upon other Paths, and build up an eclectic technique and philosophy there from; but the student who sets out to be an eclectic before he has made himself an expert will never be anything more than a dabbler."

Only lately has Western Occultism begun to appreciate the great influence of Eastern traditions upon the emerging Occult traditions of the West. Dating from even before the 1893 Chicago Parliament of Religions and Vivekananda’s presentation, the Eastern traditions and most principally the non-theistic varieties of them have infused Western Occulticism with considerations of deity that are ineffectual at best at infusing devotional service into a community which tends toward the intellectual practice of ascribing the ultimate realm of spirituality to be a delusion, and both the self and the Deity to be little more than props.

To counter such influence would it not be correct to seek out a more Theistic expression of Eastern Philosophy and to look within it for something that would better serve the resurgent tradition in the West?

I would say, who really always needs such "crutches" for moving on in their spiritual understanding and awarenes in life, should also us them, if they are realy helpfull and can give one some support in this direction. But I guess there might be also some persons among us, who might not be yet "so crippled" in this regard, as to always need such things for making some progress in this direction in life, if they really desire it to happen.
Anyway, however it might be.

Have a nice day,

anysonglyrics.com/b/bonjovi.htm
anysonglyrics.com/lyrics/b/bonjovi/Have-A-Nice-Day-Lyrics.htm

Janus wrote: Your life is yours, to do with as you please, to serve what or whom you will, or no one or nothing. What God has given let no man take away. You are responible for yourself, free to determine what best to do, but should you choose to surrender yourself to a guru's or teachers guidance, know that even the best may cheat you.

I realy like to discuss with you dear Janus, you are one of the rare persons who also like me, like to go to the bottom of spiritual truth, in order to disclose its hidden secrets, or its deeper meaning and understanding, even if we may not be always of the same opinion, we try our best, would I say.

Sometimes I can realy understand Krsna and why He wanted the Kuruksetra battle to be fighted out till the end. To disclose the deeper meaning of spiritual Truth or Dharma where its been lost since a long time, can be indeed sometimes a very painfull experience, in my opinion.

I wish you only well!
http://www.music.msn.com/album/?album=44242776#

harsi wrote:

Janus wrote: Your life is yours, to do with as you please, to serve what or whom you will, or no one or nothing. What God has given let no man take away. You are responible for yourself, free to determine what best to do, but should you choose to surrender yourself to a guru's or teachers guidance, know that even the best may cheat you.

I realy like to discuss with you dear Janus, you are one of the rare persons who also like me, like to go to the bottom of spiritual truth, in order to disclose its hidden secrets, or its deeper meaning and understanding, even if we may not be always of the same opinion, we try our best, would I say.

Sometimes I can realy understand Krsna and why He wanted the Kuruksetra battle to be fighted out till the end. To disclose the deeper meaning of spiritual Truth or Dharma where its been lost since a long time, can be indeed sometimes a very painfull experience, in my opinion.

I wish you only well!
http://www.music.msn.com/album/?album=44242776#

What have we been discussing?

I guess that Krsna just didn't like the idea of people like Duryodhana or George Bush usurping what was meant for His devotees and that He wanted Arjuna to fight, not for Him, but for his own inalienable right to serve and protect the lives, liberty, and persuit of happiness. of all of those who lived under God and under his protection

Janus wrote: What have we been discussing?

I guess that Krsna just didn't like the idea of people like Duryodhana or George Bush usurping what was meant for His devotees and that He wanted Arjuna to fight, not for Him, but for his own inalienable right to serve and protect the lives, liberty, and persuit of happiness of all of those who lived under God and under his protection

"The U.S. Constitution doesn´t guarantee happiness, only the pursuit of it. You have to catch up with it yourself."
- Benjamin Franklin

I am of the opinion, that we have found here at last a new common base for our further discussion. Well groundet your realizations in this matter indeed, would I say. But I think the next issue under discussion should be, who is really such an awakend soul to the spiritual reality of things?
Besides all the theory, what are his characteristic attributes really...?
And I don´t ask this question just because I´m "born" in the land of...
http://www.broadway.com/gen/show.aspx?SI=38778

"Remember every new beginning is some beginning´s end..."
- Jon Bon Jovi http://www.hollywood.com

http://www.harimedia.net/forum/viewforum.php?f=6

"We affirm the worth of all woman and man. We believe people should be encouraged to think for themselves..."

"I want a congregation that cherishes freedom and encourages upon dialogue on questions of faith, one in which it is okay to change your mind"

If interested to view at more of this similarities in ones behaviour and thinking. look at... http://www.uua.org/aboutuu/weare.html
as well as, http://www.uunashua.org/100quest.shtml or
http://www.uua.org/info/origins.html ... http://www.transcendentalists.com/1emerson.html

harsi wrote:

Janus wrote: What have we been discussing?


I am of the opinion, that we have found here at last a new common base for our further discussion. Well groundet your realizations in this matter indeed, would I say. But I think the next issue under discussion should be, who is really such an awakend soul to the spiritual reality of things?
Besides all the theory, what are his characteristic attributes really...?
And I don´t ask this question just because I´m "born" in the land of...

"We Szekles(sp) have the right to be proudm for in our veins flows the blood of many brave races who fought like lions, for Lordship. Here in the whirlpool of European nations the Ugric tribe bore down from iceland, bearing with them the fighting blood that Thor and Odin gave them, which their berserkers displayed with such fell intent across the seabords of Europe that the people thought that the very werewolves themselves had come down upon them. Here too when they came they found the Huns whose warlike fury swept the earth like a living flame." Quoted from memory from the novel Dracula by Bram Stocker.

I was not surprised where your link
http://www.broadway.com/gen/show.aspx?SI=38778
took me, for you had spoken wistfully elsewhere of your native country and of riding with friends to Dracula's castle. I am somewhat familiar with it's history, some of my ancestors built it, some of them fell to their deaths from it's parapets. They were slaves there and elsewhere in many European countries.

And I am not that surprised that an initiate of the Golden Dawn Bram Stocker, would include in Count Dracula's famous speech to Jonhathan Harker a glorification of war.

But that you or any other would romanacize and claim Vlad Tepis as a national hero, and then go on to profess an interest in examining the qualities of the self-realized pure devotees of Krsna does make me wonder.

So let me take both of your interests, vampires and servants of Krsna and aske you whether you have ever met either one that you, for a fact know of and can identify as being one of either type through the characteristics that they manifest? It may surprise you that I have met both, but let me here first about your experiences and then if you are interested I will recount my own, which include the services of both

Janus wrote: I was not surprised where your link
broadway.com/gen/show.aspx?SI=38778
took me, for you had spoken wistfully elsewhere of your native country and of riding with friends to Dracula's castle. ...........

So let me take both of your interests, vampires and servants of Krsna and aske you whether you have ever met either one that you, for a fact know of and can identify as being one of either type through the characteristics that they manifest?.......

Dear Janus please accept my best wishes to you, it seems that, that what was meant more as a joke, provoked somehow by pressing on the right button of your keyboard, subconciously a very unpleasent experience. I feel sorry for that.

No I am not interested in vampires, but I know many of your countryman are going to Romania as turists, by knowing of the story about them. The people there are making jokes about this people, and dont take it to seriously, because they know it comes just out of the fantasy of Bram Stoker or Hollywood. History was very much different. By the way, what is the Golden Down you wrote about and who is Jonathan Harker?

And the fact that I meantioned Krsna and the battle of Kuruksetra, is because Krsna indeed incouraged Arjuna to take up his bow and fight till the end, without taking into consideration that he may win or loose, just to do it out of his duty as a military man, as you may have read in the Bhagavad-gita. Thus protect Dharma, or Truth in ones spiritual or material duties of life, and of the human society at large.

And a devotee of the Lord, or someone who became aware of His existence and of his own spiritual existence as well, should of course also can mediate it to us, this awareness of his, in some way or other, besides all theoretical knowledge which he may have achieved by reading the books of others, or what is your opinion?

http://www.questia.com/library/religion ... of-god.jsp
http://www.questia.com/?gfe=jone
http://www.questia.com/library/philosop ... topics.jsp

I thought I should just inform that person who was sending me an e-mail under the title "It is a fact however that the great sinister movement [Illuminati] is within our Society" - Srila Prabhupada", that I personaly heard of course about this name, but know almost nothing about such things. Maybe someone among our members out there can write us something about this matter?

I just found an interesting book catalogue online: http://www.bibliopolis.com/cgi-bin/bibl ... YSICS.html and some more information about different Movements at: http://www.heart7.net/handbook.html

harsi wrote:[quote="]

And a devotee of the Lord, or someone who became aware of His existence and of his own spiritual existence as well, should of course also can mediate it to us, this awareness of his, in some way or other, besides all theoretical knowledge which he may have achieved by reading the books of others, or what is your opinion?

Guru/Discile relationships are not one sided affairs. Before either party accepts the other as being qualified for their respective part in the relationship, they study each other. Such study is conducted from different perspectives however in the type of Guru/Disciple relationshi of which you speak in which case the Guru is liberated while the disciple is subject to the faults of his conditioning.

Once in Seattle Washington there was a woman who sat upon a mountain top overnight and with the determination that with the force of her mental meditation that she would command the sun to rise. When morning came the sky was completly overcast with clouds. The sun did not rise to her perception.

Sometime later on this woman found herself meeting with Srila Prabhupada. She did not reveal this incedent of her past to him, but during the course of their discussion he said to her:" You cannot force the sun to rise by the strength of your mental meditation, neither can you command Lord Krsna to appear to satisfy your curiosity." So she became a devotee.

So such types of guru's are always looking for some way that they can get us to accept devotional service, bt still they can bring us no further than we really wish to go. They may accept us just upon our word, even if our motivations are selfish and self centered, even if it is against their own best interests to do so. Even if we end up nailing them to a cross.

When Srila Prabhupada was asked what Hansaduta wanted, for instance, he replied "Hansaduta wants me to die."

And to those who are responsible for their crucifixtions, their burning at the stake, their poisonings and beheadings, the make only one reply. Looking up into the face of God/dess they plead "Father/Mother, forgive them, they know not what they do.

The last thing that my initiating guru said to me, her last two words before she died were not a plea to God/dess, but an instruction to me.

Before the flames filled her mouth she shouted out "No vengence." I guess though that I didn't want to hear such instruction at that timefor I only heard the last word.

Srila Prabhupada was kind to me. I owe him a debt, but that debt is not being paid very well by my presence upon this forum I do not think.

Janus wrote: Srila Prabhupada was kind to me. I owe him a debt, but that debt is not being paid very well by my presence upon this forum I do not think.

The ways of the Lord are inexplicable, somehow by His will you made it to come in our association here, stay with us, would I say, we like and love you as you are, and I am sure Prabhupada would like it also.
How could it be otherwise, by the great sacrifice of Him, we are able to associate with each other and discuss spiritual topics on an equal understanding, which who knows if we have done it otherwise... So I think we all owe him in this regard a dept. Namely to be thankfull and appreciative to him for all he has done and the the knowledge and instruction he revealed to us in his books and lectures. But live goes on and the various spiritual awareness of the souls as well. And each time and place has in this regard, it´s own challenge to master and to make it accesible to all to understand the spiritual needs of the self, besides the one which may satisfy our physical senses. would I say.