New Orliens and no end...

[GPandit]

Janus said: "What are you saying G.P., that anyone conscious of the reality of our material situation is a creep?"

Of course not. I feel like we are constantly being reminded of the reality of our material situation, just by living life. I just prefer to not let it become a morbid or negative obsession. And I'm not saying that's what you do, janus. I don't know you, and therefore not judging you. I commented (somewhat tongue in cheek) that your posting depressed me a little. It presented a very bleak view of existence--one that I don't really agree with. But, to each his own......Great to hear that you are collecting for victims of Katrina, we are doing it here as well.

[Janus]

Janus: " Or are you referring to Descartes, who dismissed God and any other non-mathematical explanation of reality as being false?"

Well yes one can say that the french philosopher Descartes is one of the figurehead of the Western Enlightement."

Yes, one of them, but his late in life ruminations in regard to God, the soul, etc., were not what was selected of him as contribution to the Machine Age World View and it's paradigm. That did not appreciate Decartes the philospher, but Decartes the mathrmatician, who furnishedthe key to understanding the world and deciphering its hidden secrets and to controlling it for human purposes through mathematics.

"As Iconsidered the matter carefully, it generally came to light that all those matters only referred to mathematics in which order and measurement are investigated, and that it makes no difference whether it be numbers, figures, stars, sounds or any other object that the question of measurement arises. I saw, consequently, that there must be some general science to explain that element as a whole which gives rise to problems about order and measurement. This I perceived was called universal mathematics. Such a science should contain the primary rudiments of human reason, and its province ought to extend to the eliciting of true results in every subject."

"To speak freely, I am convinced that it [mathematics] is a more powerful instrument of knowledge than any other that has been bequathed to us by human agency, as being the source of all things?

By the time that Decartes died in 1650, it had been his mathematical view of nature that had been accepted by Europes most "enlightened" minds.

The predominant consensual conceptual internalized Machine Age World View of reality had several different architects, each of which provided their unique contribution. Bacon, Newton, Locke, Decartes, Smith, all of which provided contributions that built upon those of the others and created a synthesis which gave new life to an age old Western tradition created by the Greco-Roman Atomic Mechanists, that cemented, as it were, the consideration of fundamentalist materialists.

[Janus]

Janus said: "What are you saying G.P., that anyone conscious of the reality of our material situation is a creep?"

Of course not. I feel like we are constantly being reminded of the reality of our material situation, just by living life. I just prefer to not let it become a morbid or negative obsession. And I'm not saying that's what you do, janus. I don't know you, and therefore not judging you. I commented (somewhat tongue in cheek) that your posting depressed me a little. It presented a very bleak view of existence--one that I don't really agree with. But, to each his own......Great to hear that you are collecting for victims of Katrina, we are doing it here as well.

I do not know you either G, but to that end I have reviewed your posts upon this forum and have deduced from them that you are not a mad bomber either, that and that we have some common interests and experiences, and I consider you to be a friend.

i am sirry that my picture of reality is very bleak, but to most of the people of the world and to most of the community of world wide science, it is bleak. While I do much prefer to accentuate the positive, in a condition in which what we do at the next moment is critical, I feel that it is important to see the world as itit, for what a person does not know can still affect him.

Human beings do not, in general; have a very high tolerance for existential pressure, and have also in general enogh of it already in their day to day. This feature of the human being has a srong tie in with the ossilating or mamalian brain, but also with the fixed or serpent brain and neither of these have anything to do with the human brain which is supposed to be detached from both pleasure and pain and even from desire to increase its territory and maintain its existence in it persuance of its objective to attain to truth.

i wish that I disagreed with the facts as they have been presented to me, that I stood in your shoes, but unfortunately for me the search for truth has had an unpleasant conclusion, i have found the truth and its is terrifiing.

How can you or I or anyone look at the last century and at this cones mere beginning anf still entertain the thought that we are progressing, that dispite our mistakes that we have learned from them and that we will be alright? That someone will take care of it for us?

You go chant Hare Krsna on your bus, go stand around and practice Chi, go on to continue to respond tounge in cheek to anyone that upsets your comfortable self complcency, and go on to disagree out of a poor fund of knowledge and an emotional need to be noticed and thought of as being more objective than those that upset you. Go on to picture those who upset you as maybe crazies.

Ignorance is bliss. God, I miss it. To bad I do not drink

Go on to do these things and you will be happier than me, go on to ignore your own advice to yourself and continue to read my posts and what other readings I direct you to for corroboartion and you may become even less happy even than me.

If I knew then what I know now prabhu and someone had offered me then a glimpse of the truth as I see it now, I would have put out my eyes before I had glimpse of it. But I asked to see

If wishes were fishes we'd all go down to the sea, but the truth is the truth whether it pleases or displeases either you or me. The Absolute Truth is Krsna, and that truth is superior to all others, and beautiful, it is the relative truths, those relative to our human lives and to out ecoystem that are disquiting. We hope that we might change these relative truths to coincide with the Absolute Truth, but that takes all kinds of realizations and may take many lives.

[Kula-pavana]

what happened in New Orleans can happen anywhere. crime is often a matter of opportunity. when faced with grim reality and absence of law enforcement, many people will turn into animals.

personally, I see it as a wake up call (last?) before a period of major tribulations Srila Prabhupada was forecasting to come during the life of his disciples. it would be interesting to get Hari's opinion on this.

[GPandit]

Janus wrote:
"You go chant Hare Krsna on your bus, go stand around and practice Chi, go on to continue to respond tounge in cheek to anyone that upsets your comfortable self complcency, and go on to disagree out of a poor fund of knowledge and an emotional need to be noticed and thought of as being more objective than those that upset you. Go on to picture those who upset you as maybe crazies."

Janus Janus Janus!..you start off by saying that you want to be my friend, and then you drill me with this tirade. It’s not hard to see what dwells just below the surface of your scientific and educated words"”anger, or more specifically, self-anger directed outward. And please"”don’t refer to me as prabhu; it’s not applicable to where we are presently. I could try to counter all of your insults, but I won’t. Some of them are probably true, to a degree. I dislike being referred to as complacent and ignorant, but after all, this is an Internet forum, and if this is your image of me, so be it. I can only be who I am, and attempt to express it in the context of words on a screen.

Strangely, I’m not really upset about it Janus. Through all of the bitterness of your words, I kind of like you. You’re probably an interesting person. And although you will probably find this condescending (it’s not meant that way), allow me to tell you this. As we are living in this situation now, we have a choice. To be happy, or not. But since you seem to believe that happiness is a flaw or a weakness, what can I say?

GP

[harsi]

Janus wrote:

"So yes, I should be happy considering my own material circumstances but only Nama shelters me from what I feel from what I see, only Nama sets me free and brings me to a place where material happiness and distress are one to me in the service of the soul of compassion. There is no other joy like it, not even in Hollywood. Las Vegas can come close though."

That must have thought also Ray Nagin the mayor of New Orleans, whom I just saw on CNN. He gave a press conference where he expressed his thanks and that of the local Government to all who helped and are helping the people who are in need. He mentioned the President of the US. general Aunery as I understood, the Governer and all the people who brought and are bringing love and hope for those who are in need.

And he mentioned Las Vegas, whose mayor offered to him to make arangement for tousends of people to live for free in many of the hotels of this city. All the people who will be brought there will get 200 dollars for free from the federal Government for their free disposal.
One can imagine what some will do with it...

Anyway, Ray Nagin said that his people deserve to have some fun after this black days of suffering. Somehow understandable, or?

[harsi]

Janus wrote:

"The predominant consensual conceptual internalized Machine Age World View of reality had several different architects, each of which provided their unique contribution. Bacon, Newton, Locke, Decartes, Smith, all of which provided contributions that built upon those of the others and created a synthesis which gave new life to an age old Western tradition created by the Greco-Roman Atomic Mechanists, that cemented, as it were, the consideration of fundamentalist materialists."

In this conection is it also interesting to know that Descartes had also a predecessor in his thoughts, which is rarely mentioned in this regard.
Before Descartes made the so called groundbraking assertion that thought proved existence, or I would say that he only showed us that since there exists a thought there must exist also its owner or he who is observing and evaluating that thought for his or for some higher purpuse in regard to action, another man had already said the same thing many centuries before.

Namely Saint Augustine, who has written in his book "City of God" the following, also in Latin like Descartes, since Latin was than the language of the educated clas: "ac proinde haec cognitio, ego cogito, ergo sum, est omnium prima et certissima etc."

In English this was translated as: "I am certain that I Am, that I know that I am, and that I love to be and to know. In the face of these truths, the quibbiles of the sketics lose their force.
If they say: "What if you are mistaken?--well, if I am mistaken, I am.
For, if one does not exist, he can by no means be mistaken. therefore I am, if I am mistaken . Just as I know that I am, I also know that I Know.

And when I love both to Be and to Know, then I add to the things I know a third and equally important knowledge, the fact that I Love."

Astonishingly as I was reading, Descartes had never come across this passage of Saint Augustine, so similar to his observations, until they were presented to him in 1640 by the Dutch minister Adres Covius, well after he had written his "Meditations on First Philosophy."

[Janus]

Janus Janus Janus!..you start off by saying that you want to be my friend....

That is not what I said. I said that I considered you to be a friend. I have always been a friend of the devotees since first I saw some three of them crossing busy Hollywood Blvd. Two young men and one young woman, chanting and dancing as they went, completly oblivious of the traffick dsahing all aroung them. It was the first feeling of compassion that I remember having in this life. I guess that was when I made a friend, although I didn't know it then, and the three devotees there were oblivious again.

Another day and I had gone over the hill into Hollywood again, not to see the devotees, but because they simply did not have any book stores in my city with the likes of Gilberts and Mr. Pickwicks, bookstores with large sections on the Occult. I was fourteen and was already initiated, bbut not into Krsna consciousness, already I had performed the Liber Samek, what the 20'th centuries most famous magician had considered to be the most powerful ancient Pagan Rite extent.

As my friend Mike and I walked down the Blvd we heard the devotees coming towards us. It was a chanting party, two rows of them, and as my friend covered his ears and ducked to the side I let the two lines pass by me, one on either side. In a spirit of submission, and eager and relevant enquiry, as the last chanters passed I looked into their eyes. THey were somewhere else, and in a flash of Glden light so was I. It wasn't just visual, it was with ever fiber of my being. like as if you had been struck by lightning, it was what Christians reger to as a Transport.

Years later I learned that it was Vishnu Jahns chanting party. So, yes, I consider you a friend, for I consider you to be a friend to all. whether you consider yourself to be or no, I consider you to be one of them, I consider you to be a devotee of Krsna, a friend to all.

and then you drill me with this tirade. ....

, my observation, just as I made when one of the devotees lost his sandle in the street and rushed to get it, oblivious to the danger that threatened him all around. He did not see me then, you do not see me now.

It’s not hard to see what dwells just below the surface of your scientific and educated words"”anger, or more specifically, self-anger directed outward. ....

, Are you sure beyond a doubt?

And please"”don’t refer to me as prabhu; it’s not applicable to where we are presently. ....

, Two people can experience the exact same existential situation and interpret it quite differently. In as much as one (or both) or model fundamentalists, they will think that their interpretation of the event is the event and they will be prone to investing their time in argument over which of the one is more objective. In as much as one (or both) have "thrown their tent door open to the fermanent, they will be eager and receptive to signals, they will learn. When you have nothing to teach me, then you will no longer me prabhu.

I could try to counter all of your insults, but I won’t. Some of them are probably true, to a degree. ....

,

Yes, probably they are, but why sweat the small stuff, just be aware of the effects of your defects upon you.

I dislike being referred to as complacent and ignorant, ....

, Who doesn't, especially when it's true. You don't think that I'm ignorant and complacent, it's just a matter of degree.

but after all, this is an Internet forum, and if this is your image of me, so be it. I can only be who I am, and attempt to express it in the context of words on a screen.....

Yes, all other primates mark off the boudaries of theit territory with urine or feces, only the domsesticated primate,arks its territorian boudaries with pixilated lines or paper trails.

Strangely, I’m not really upset about it Janus. Through all of the bitterness of your words, I kind of like you. You’re probably an interesting person. And although you will probably find this condescending (it’s not meant that way), allow me to tell you this. As we are living in this situation now, we have a choice. To be happy, or not. But since you seem to believe that happiness is a flaw or a weakness, what can I say?

You know a lot of people have just lost everything they own. They've lost members of their families. A lot of them don't know where their children or their old folks are. Why don't you go tell this to them, or why don't you don't. Why don't you just back up and reconsider what's more important to you?

It isn't adhidavaka klesa, it's global warming, and it's only up o.4 of a degree the world over. 6 degrees by the end of the century. We need a change in consciousness now, maybe not for you or for me.

I do not understand what many mean by happiness. Happiness to me has always come from seeing other people happy. Maybe thats why even my lesbian frieds tell me that I'm "Ok for a man." I don't know, but it seems to me that when you feel th heartbeats of others beating as your own that you step up into what it means to be a man.

[harsi]

I just wanted to share with you a interesting quote I just found on the Internet, which reflects a little bit also the mood I am in this days.

"It doesn`t matter if things are going a little slow, but make everything slow but sure. That is a good principle. To do things hastily and incorectly is not good. There is a proverb in bengali: `sabure mawaphale` This means that all valluable nuts like almonds, macadamias, walnuts, coconuts, etc, all take a long time to fructify. Anything valuable takes a little time to come into existence. Therefore there is no harm in waiting for the best thing. But everything is well that ends well.
That should be the principle." (Shyamasundar 7.15.69)

[Janus]

Human extinction within 100 years warns scientist

WEDNESDAY, 17 NOVEMBER 2004

By JOHN HENZELL
A top New Zealand researcher is using a
prestigious award ceremony in Christchurch to warn
that humans face extinction by the end of the
century.

Professor Peter Barrett will be presented with the
Marsden Medal tonight for his 40-year contribution
to Antarctic research, latterly focusing on
climate change.

The director of Victoria University's Antarctic
Research Centre expects to use his acceptance
speech to warn climate change was a major threat
to the planet.

"After 40 years, I'm part of a huge community of
scientists who have become alarmed with our
discovery, that we know from our knowledge of the
ancient past, that if we continue our present
growth path, we are facing extinction," Barrett
said. "Not in millions of years, or even
millennia, but by the end of this century."

Barrett won the award - designed to mark lifetime
achievement in the sciences - for his research
into Antarctica, which began with helping prove
New Zealand was once part of the Gondwanaland
supercontinent.

He then changed disciplines, to predicting the
impact of climate change. The result was a body of
research on Antarctic ice sheets "which to our
surprise is becoming increasingly relevant to the
world as a consequence of global warming".

Barrett's warning underlines comments he made last
year that even the Kyoto Protocol on global
warming would not be enough to avert a climate
disaster. The United States and Australia have
refused to adopt Kyoto protocol measures.

"Research on the past Antarctic climate has an
ominous warning for the future ..." he said.

"We need an international commitment to an
effective solution, if we are to survive the worst
consequences of this grandest of all human
experiments."

[harsi]

Kula-pavana wrote:

"What happened in New Orleans can happen anywhere. Crime is often a matter of opportunity. "
(Can someone tell me how to make this nice white quotation in this program?)

I was just seeing in this regard a report in one german TV program where it was indicated what went wrong in New Orleans. They were showing Mikel Brown, the chief of the catastrophe protection office how many people who were victims of this great flood were insulting him, and the media in your country were reporting almost daily about new failures of his organization. Thus Brown was saying in an interview, that he would have been informed only three days after the storm that 20. thousand people were searching shelter in the Superdom of New Orleans. (I knew that long before by looking CNN)

On the day after the hurricane, Brown was first directing all of the people under his leadership, to not sent anybody in the area of the catastrophe. In the office of Mikel Brown was prevailing the total chaos, the reporter said. The pilots of the helicopters were complaining in the camera that nobody was telling them where they should fly to save people. "We had to wait 34 hours" said one pilot, "during this time we could have saved many lifes."

Many man of the local fire departement followed the call for help of the mayor Ray Nagin, but in order to be of use for rescuing many lifes, Brown was ordering them to distribute printed papers to the people with the telefon number of his office, and was sending some in order to stay as background behind the President of the US. who was coming by flight there, shortly before, in order to speak in front of all the cameras of the reporters.

"Browny you are doing a very good job here" the President said to him, while he was shaking of his hand and smiling in the cameras.
By remembering this scene, which I saw also a few days ago on CNN, I felt myself put back in the time of my childhood in Rumania, I am born in that country, although I live now in Germany.
When the former president was visiting our city there. We all as pupils of our school there, were brought there were the "great leader" was speaking and had to stand in line as background for the cameras.

[harsi]

Janus:

"A top New Zealand researcher is using a
prestigious award ceremony in Christchurch to warn
that humans face extinction by the end of the century."

Do you think that Amerikas refusal to sign and apply the Kyoto Protocol in its economy, could have something to do with this? Or could this have been responsible in any way for what happened in New Orleans?

[harsi]

Janus:

"A top New Zealand researcher is using a
prestigious award ceremony in Christchurch to warn
that humans face extinction by the end of the century."

Do you think that Amerikas refusal to sign and apply the Kyoto Protocol in its economy, could have something to do with this? Or could this have been responsible in any way for what happened in New Orleans?....

Of course one could well consider this to be just some rethorical questions, and I must admit that I am using this style sometimes in my conversations, but in this conection my questioning has another meaning.
It seems so that in the scientific circles in Amerika there is also a great portion of uncertainties in this matter.

For example in 1998 the Global Climate Science Data Center (GCSDC) in the U.S. with an anual budget of 55 000 000 dolars introduced in the american society, as I was reading on the WWW, a National Direct Outreach and Education Development with the goal of this direct outreach program to inform and educate members of Congress, state officials, industry leadership, and school teachers and the students about certain uncertainties in climat changes in the scientific community of the U.S.

What whould have be the goal of this, one can only speculate.
Maybe to stop the U.S government to sign the Protocol of Kyoto and Buenos Aires. Who knows?

The german Government were signing it and are implementing it in its economy, mostly because there is also the Green Party in the coalition which forms the government.
Its minister of environment Jürgen Tritin from the Green Party made laws to be implemented very soon whereby the companies will get a certain quota with CO2 emission allowed to them to blow in the air, who if they will not conform to this quota given to them by the state authoritys, will get punished by law, and will have to pay much money for not doing so.

But, and that is a interesting matter in this regard, those companies who are blowing out through their chimneys, less CO2 gas emissiones, than the quota given to them by the state, would allow to them, can sell the remaining part of their given quota, to other companies, who have problems to hold on, to their given quota.
In other words, who are blowing out, due to different reasons, moore Co2 gas emissiones through theyr chimneys, than it is allowed to them.

For doing this, from next year on, there will be in Germany the allowence to sell CO2 gas emissiones quotas, freely on the stock market, and those companys who are not yet up to date with the newest technology in regard to the reduction of this CO2 emissions, can buy on the free stock market, the allowence to blow out moore CO2 gas, out of their chimneys, escaping thus to pay the penalmoney to the state for not applying themselves to their given quota.

There will be special traind law inforcement personel, who will go at different times, to all the companies in the country to check, dont ask me how, if they dont blow moore CO2 out of their chimneys, than their given quota from the state, or the remaing quota from other companys, which they bought on the free stock market, would allow them to do.
I hope you can follow what I am trying here to explain, as far as I understand due to what I heard from the media, the future aplication of this new law and the way how it will be implemented by the state oficials.

Now one may ask, how would this change the problem of CO2 gas emissions in the air. Well, every year the quota of Co2 gas emissiones, given or allowed to the companys by the state, will be lesser, than the qouta of the year before, so that the companies will be forced to invest in certain, already available on the market, technologies for the reduction of Co2 gas emissiones, or they will have to buy on the free market of the stock market in Frankfurt, or in other citys, their remaining quota which would allow them to blow moore CO2 gases out in the air, than their given quota from the state would allow them to do.

On the other hand those companies who invest in the existing, newest up to date technologys on the market, are allowed to make a business with their from their given quota thrifted so called CO2 gas emissions, thus making money, which they can use, in order to invest it in the already availible, but very expensiv technology of gas reduction systems.

A interesting idea to force the economy who are centered on making as much profit they can, to aply the measures for CO2 reduction of the Kyoto Protokol, or?

[harsi]

Ignorance is bliss. God, I miss it. To bad I do not drink.

"Such a philosopher, but remain within all your philosophy a human being"
David Hume

[harsi]

I do not understand what many mean by happiness. Happiness to me has always come from seeing other people happy. Maybe thats why even my lesbian friends tell me that I'm "Ok for a man." I don't know, but it seems to me that when you feel the heartbeats of others beating as your own that you step up into what it means to be a man.

"In a real man a child is hidden; that does whant to play"
- Friedrich Nitzsche