Discussions about Lecture topics part II

[Gaura]

My dear Janus.

Is all what you have written your realizations?

I have read all Praphupada’s books 5 times, as it was ordered in ISCON.
But all repited words seems to me lifeless, some words! Another persons realizations.

So I’m researching all this in my way and there arose some questions connected with this.

[Janus]

My dear Janus.

Is all what you have written your realizations?

Some, I have had realization of my souls imortality, etc, but not all. Some things I realize and some things I believe. In respect to my beliefs, I insist that they be supported with some evidence, scientific, shastric, logical inference, which tends me to believe that they may be correct, and I check for logical consistancy, but there are a whole heck of a lot of things I do not know and am unsure of.
For intance Shastra states that the eternally liberated souls never fall from Viakuntha, so the analogy between Satan and each indivivual is not literally correct although poetically precise. I reason that we must have decided to enjoy the material creation before we ever realized our constitutional positions as Krsna's servents. I believe that we were created first and then given a choice of whether to play God or to serve God. Perhaps some explanation exists somewhere in Vedic literature that explains and corroborates this, or I could be wrong. when I am wrong I like to know it Delusion is something that we have enough trouble with already, no need to make things worse by being attached to our delusions

The acceptance of hearsay as evidence, accusation as proof comes from our tacit conditioning and a universal human characteristic that Both Bill Cosby, the famous American comic, and Fredriche Neitchze, the German philosopher have both commented upon. Cosby observed that "Parents aren't interested in justice, they want quite!," and Neitchze observed that "People don't want challenging questions, they want comforting explanations." This obersavtion reflects both a low tolerance to existential pressure and the tendency to relieve such pressures by accepting whatever first relieves it, an emotinal impetus rather than a philosophical justification.

As soon as you get an explanation that relieves such stresses you do not have to think about it again. Thus even blind faith belief can satisfy one's emotional need. Once such blind faith has been accepted we become attached to it. We forget or we have never learned that what we know and what we merely believe are different, we come to think that belief equals knowledge, when the exact opposite is true.

Belief equals ignorance, but it is a particulary insidious type of ignorance because we often mistakenly think that our beliefs represent knowlede and we are attached to them through our emotions. Thus anything that challenges our beliefs threatens our false sense of certitude and threatens to return us to the same emotional anxiety that first we felt that occaisioned us to accept our bellefs in the first place. Plus we may have spent half a lifetime or more building up our lives and reputations around our beliefs. Case in point is if you have spent half a lifetime in ISKCON believing that such and such and so and so were pure devotees and that Krsna is God, the likelyhood that you would want to regard anything that challenged these beliefs objectivly is highly unlikely.

If Krsna Consciousness works as a scientific process (it does, and that is from my own realization), then one should not expect that one should have to remain in the position of blind faith belief eternally, or even for the rest of one's life. You should be receiving corroboration from your own tangible spiritual experiences, and if not, then something needs adjusting.

For me I became Bhraman realized within six months of joining the movement, and Krsna Conscious, meaning conscious of Krsna as being an actual Personality during my first and only year in the movement, but I never became "fixed" up, and so my transcendence is rather "spotty". (very spotty). Krsna and Srila Prabhupada have been far more generous to me than I am deserving by my efforts though.

Never mind what others want you to believe, a scientific process is not dependent upon belief or disbelief for the success (or failure) of it's methodology to provide you with the tangible results of the experiment. Don't argue with them, just see things as they are, that these peoples minds have an emotional need for certitude and that thre more people that share their beliefs the safer they feel, and conduct your experiment in private. Your relationship with Krsna is after all between you an Krsna, an intensely personal thing. Look for Guru. You may only find i little here, a little there, but Guru is one, Guru is always there. Study yourself, relaize who you are as you are now, how your mind is actually devided in its desires and priorities and how that may be affecting the experiment. Pich up a book on human anatomy and look at the brain, the three brains rather, the fixed, the ossilating and finally that human brain which gices you your conceptual self identification. Not the primal and mamalian brain and understand that each of these has its own identity, it's own ways of processing things, note that they are also the seat of your strongest physical drives and that they regard the the promiss of liberation from false egoism and surrender to Krsna as a death threat and as a threat to their control and enjoyment. Examine yourself for your true motivations, and then follow the process, aware of the conflict of interests within you.
You cannot convince your serpent and mamalian brains with words for they do not speak any human language, they bark, they his and they growl. They present aspects of yourself which are subconscious, they on the other hand know you well " Water sleeps, the enemy is sleepless" The uncontrolled mind is one's worst enemy in this process, Krsna says that in Bhagavad Gita, you must understand them to control them with your human mind, but you must also develop and experience the higher taste, otherwise such false repression and ignorance leaves you vulnerable to their attacks and they wil attack at the worst possible time. The mamalian brain plays, it seeks pleasure and to avoid pain, the the strongest of your brains, the serpent brain, it does not fight for fun, it strike to kill any chance of your liberation and surrender to Krsna. A lot of this is from my realizations, after the fact. Nine times the span that measures night and day I fell before I understood this.

[Gaura]

Dear Janus.

I really appreciate your thoughts. I always like when person speaks from the heart. That gives me an impetus to go deeper into my life research. And that sincerity is the juice of life.

When we say we belief that means we don’t know that. If we see something or do know something we never say that we belief to that. For example if we see a glass of water and drink it, we can’t say - we belief that this is a glass of water. When we say that we belief that means we don’t know, but we want it to be so.


Some comment from meditation.

I could perceive that I’m here right now. It’s not belief. Who am I? Mind, body, or what! Ok, I graduated that.
I’m energy inside. I start to gaze at me, to my energy. And somehow start to fill love. And when I continue to feel and gaze farther, that love starts to increase. Ok. I make conclusion that I could be the love. Then farther what is all other things around me? Also love? No, hardly feel that. More likely this everything is other thing.
But wait a minute it’s becoming closer. This other thing is also love. Love around me??

But they say there is a God and! But where is He? I close my eyes. Again concentrating on me. I’m right here.
I feel my energy. Bliss?? But God.. Where is He? He should speak to me? But he doesn’t.

So I’m researching. And the topic is about that research. It’s a really research and it doesn’t get satisfied with the words from the books or other’s words. This thirst can only be satisfied by the words from another’s heart.
So I’m looking a sincere answer!

[Janus]

But they say there is a God and! But where is He? I close my eyes. Again concentrating on me. I’m right here.
I feel my energy. Bliss?? But God.. Where is He? He should speak to me? But he doesn’t.

So I’m researching. And the topic is about that research. It’s a really research and it doesn’t get satisfied with the words from the books or other’s words. This thirst can only be satisfied by the words from another’s heart.
So I’m looking a sincere answer!

"Simply by chanting the holy name of Krsna one can obtain freedom from material existence. Indeed, simply by chanting the Hare Krsna mantra one will be able to see the lotus feet of Krsna.
Sri Caitanya-caritamrta Adi-lila, Ch 7, 73

If you want to see God Gaura, then this is the simplest way to do it according to Mahaprabhu, but i don't just accept that its true, I've been chanting Hare Krsna now for over 37 years, it's worked for me too and I didn't have to wait that long to see Krsna.

[Gaura]

Dear Janus.
Thank you for your care.

You said such a thing that I should be a "demon" to say something against Lord Chaytania. I love Him.

But He was just embracing people and they fall in love of Godhead.

It’s interesting how long one should chant to get result. I mean real result. I chanted more then 10 years but reached nothing special. Of course there were some moments of great joy, I’m sure everyone wile chanting felt that sometime, but the same emotions I felt even without chanting.
How about you? You chanted much more time then me. Have you seen God? Have you been rolling on the floor out of love of Godhead, as it was revealed in "scriptures", lose your consciousness? If not then you just have a belief in that. I would like to mention again that some small result from chanting I felt even without chanting.
To chant hopping that after death we will be rescued is just a belief for me. Everything is here in reality. Why should I blindly make something out of fear? When I’m in reality I’m not afraid of anything not in this life not in after. I’m putting my life in the hands of existence. I meet everything happily as a chance to get more awareness. Future is like a horizon. We always run towards that horizon but it’s remaining in the same distance from us. Better I think to look under our feet, in real moment trying to found out the Truth right here in this spot of time, not thinking even a second farther. It’s better then to make something hopping for result in the future.

Sorry for shaking fundamental truths, but I tried to be sincere with myself.
I think in this kind of discussions the Truth is revealing it’s self.

[Janus]

Vishnujana’s chanting party was feeling a whole lot more than a little bliss when I passed between their two lines, so I doubt that I am alone un recognition that there is a spiritual high, quite distinct from a mundane pleasurable experience. Even my army buddy when I brought him to the temple, asked me laughingly if they put LSD into the food after he had tasted it such was his sudden delight and happiness.

I did not mean to make you feel like a demon, I just wanted to mention someone whose opinion might odder more convincement than mine, and I felt your love just then. I am thinking that whatever else you may choose to try in your life that already you have attained your life’s success, love of Krsna, Sri Caitanya Mahaprabu.

I was never as devotee as you were. I just got caught like some foolish little bird who thinks that the bread crumb that he is out to get is just far enough away from the snake that he can reach it and not get caught. What a dumb ass I was, to think that I could see Krsna and Srila Prabhupada without being seen by them

Oh yes, Krsna and I have had some fun together. When I left the movement I took Krsna’s name with me. I don’t exactly roll on the ground but we do have some fun. I take Krsna’s names out for walks and Krsna just lets me see Krsna’s names miraculous powers. For instance I was in a Baskin Robbins ice cream parlor, chanting Hare Krsna in my low based vibrant voice, enough to feel and enough to hear, but not enough to consciously recognize superficially. I was just waiting when the last customer left and then the young girl behind the counter, her eyes rolled up in ecstacy and she practically swooned. Walking over to the Savon drugh store there was an old woman with a walker, she must have been in her 70’s or older, but she jumped towards the sound of the name like an Olympic runner, starting off at the sound of a pistol shot. All much fun, and then there are other times when the meaning is to much for me and I must stop, or I would perhaps roll upon the ground and end up in a straight jacket in some mental institution for the hopelessly insane.

One day I was at the Los Angeles Zoo and I found myself standing with several hundred other people in front of the Gorilla enclosure. There was a very old Gorilla perched up upon a bolder where she could see the whole crowd. Many people were talking and I was chanting Hare Krsna in the same way so as not to disturb them. No human beings consciously percieved or heard what I was doing, but I'd not considered the Gorilla The Gorrilla came down and ignoring everyone else walked straight up to stand straight across from me, looking and listening with an intensity of focus, the better to hear. A week later she died. I wished that I had had some prasadam to have given her. Always I do less than I feel that I should when there is a part of me that just wants to give everything, in gratitude for the love that Krsna and Srila Prabhupada have shown to me.

Have I seen God? I don't know. I have seen Krsna. I can only assume from the characteristics that Krsna displays that Krsna must be God. but I do not know, and I do not care. He could be the DevilBut for all I know. But Krsna has been to me the kindest and most considerate friend. In relation to Krsna my life has been more fulfilling than ever I could have imagined that life could be. Krsna saved my mothers life, my own father became a devotee the day that he died, so many things, so many ways Krsna has given meaning to my life, most meaning. But if you mean have I seen Krsna, yes I have, and I have even heard His flute, but that was a long, long time ago on Harinam with Bahudak, when time stood still along with tens of thousands of people while the melody of Krsna's flute filled the streets of Seattle.