Speaking of sects

[Nanda-grama]

Kamalamala wrote:there is a big difference between Hari who stoped this guru play and this gurus who continues it.
I agree.
I don't know good this gurus. I can say only that,may be, they are cowardly or they consider that their vocation is to be guru in ISKCON. For example, late disciple of Hari who became guru in Russia presently-he trys to be similar with Hari very much, he smiles ,speacks, moves like Hari. When I come to temple, all say me: look, he looks like Vishnupad! When I answer: no!- they are grieved... I think he considers that his mission is to substitute Vishnupad in ISKCON by himself. I don't think that he enjoys by his condition very much, he doesn't look very happy.
But I know many people who is in ISKCON now, they are good people and they love their gurus. I understand that they and I live in different universes and I respect their feelings and understanding.

[kamalamala1]

I am not saying the people in sects are bad i am saying the leaders is cheaters ..
They are cheating exploiting people and more then that forcing them to warship them can you imagine and all this in the name of Lord.
You know people tend to make cults and becoming blind many people love Pugacheva or mickel Jakson and they can be good people so wath.
Even cristian churchs doesnt do that they can cheat but they dont force there followers to warship them as God.

For me its smell very horrible.

[Nanda-grama]

There is not something what I could retort you on it.

[kamalamala1]

something more to say

However
If a person is realy want to help people i mean realy feel that
people need knowlage and he can give ,he should go and teach
and God and Gods will support him deffinatly,no need to make a cult from himself no need to get a warship, people will appreciate him realy if he is helping , people are generaly very very graitful.He even
not nessesary should have mistical capacityes.And more then that he doesnt need to be authorised by anybody or any group/.
See how nice it is .
One not making people dependent on him they are free in all ways and he doesnt depend on them also[as so called gurus depend on the bunch of ther desciples], he just giving knowlage,and if he can teach more let him teach more why he should need the strange titles.
You know the best teacher is one who are making people independent not the one who makes them dependent.
Even if one doesnt have mistyc capasityes he can help people a lot .
But if one have mistic capacitys he can help in mistycal way too.
See how is all very simple and good.
Now look at Hari he is doing exactly wath i wrote above,he doesnt need titles he is mistyc and he helps people without beeing dependant on them, and he making evryone independant from him for
there real growth since the real growth begins when one taking full
responcibility for his life in general ,both his spiuritual and so called material life. And he helps people when they aproach him is nt it much better then the kingergurden looking relationships between so called Gurus and desciples.?

By the way here is some teckniks to make people realy dependant
you should say evrybody that you are perfect and they are inperfect you are saint and they are sinner ,you are pure and they are poluted,you are clever they are stupid,you are libarated they are conditioned ,you are the only hope for them,
and no even need to say it directly you can say it by hints or in the therd name using scriptures,and by this you can make forever dependent on you, and if you want to make people more dependent then you are saying that there are 10 offences and the one of them is considering you ordinary man,and they should chant this offences evryday in the morning to not forget it.
This is doing and was doing the sects and religions for centuryes.

But when you say to people that you are as better as me you are as clever as i you are as pure as me and so on people will appreciate you and even love you but not will be dependant but will realy evolve on ther way of evolution..
See the differense and see who is doing wath.

[Nanda-grama]

I agree with you/
I think ISKCON where people speak about maya constantly- is itself a great illusion, which preserves conciousness of people. Where people lose themselves and become the part of this sistem. Where it is necessary to have much power of spirit , resoluteness and renunciation in order to simply be oneself and to follow after one's heart. Where people can't change something and if they go out -all curse them and trample down their names. Where people remain because they fear hell which is everywhere outside ISKCON...
But as any illusion it is necessary for something.

[kamalamala1]

Yes somethings exist as examle how things should not be done

the alternative is abvious.... and again

[harsi]

I am not saying the people in sects are bad I am saying the leaders is cheaters...
They are cheating exploiting people and more then that forcing them to warship them can you imagine and all this in the name of Lord.

You can of course say whatever you like, thats your right, but it will always remain your own subjective reality. Someone else may have other experiences wich may contradict your own therefore I would say that to always force your subjective opinion on others may be somehow counterproductive to what you may want to achieve with them. Better would it be to discuss this issues from a more objective reality where you can of course also describe your own experiences.

I remember back in the years 1980 there was in Germany a priest called Pfarrer Haack who became very prominent in the media due to his very aggressive comments in some newspapers and magazines about the oh. so bad 'Hare Krishna sect' in Germany. But I and many others didn't really took his comments too seriously since they where written without any real insight experience of this 'sect'. He was just taking some out of context quotes from some books of Prabhupada or the Varnashrama Dharma book of Harikesha and was giving his own version to it. But for all the newspapers, magazins and even the TV he was the 'best informed' expert for sects when they tried to sell best theyr products with his aggresive comments and their photos of the shaved headed in indian clothes dancing Hare Krishnas on the street. It was a great fashion in the media in the 1980s which lasted a few years until this 'great expert for sects' died in 1991 and his 'great expertise' in regard to the 'Hare Krishnas' and other "sects" with him.

[kamalamala1]

DO YOU THINK THAT WATH YOU WRITing IS NOT YOUR SUBJECTIVE THOUGHTS?
Afcourse wath i wrote is my understanding and it based on my experianse.
Your examples is alwayes strange have nothing to do with the text but anyway,is nt it abvious that i have real insight experience of this 'sect' i was there more then 30 years.
Ok let examine ,the gurus in iscon isnt in position to be warshiped,
is that wrong,is nt it that everybody should bow down before them,is nt it that there desciples washing there feets pereodicaly and drinking that wather and eating there remnants,
is nt it they serving them as the kings.?
If you are blind wath can i say it is your problem just wash your eyes.
I even saw in India how desciples was carrying there gurus in palanlkins not becasuse he couldnt walk but because he was enjoing it.
Now about money how this guyes getting money can you tell me,
they are not warking since they are not karmis?
I knew storyes from first hand that how the money from different programs desapeared {there was a funny story with kalash program},so you tend to be the guy who closing his eyes and idealising everithing,anyway it is not my problem it is there ones.
I am just writing truth wich the zombies doesnt like.
I personally think that Lord Chaitanyas desire wasnt at all
to make zombie sosiety and make zombies leaders.
And more then that Lord Chaitanya is not the property of ISCON>
And evrybody is free to understand Him as they wants.
Where the truth there is God -Krshna not where is a cheaters... think about that .
I am writing the truth althought it is not pleasent for zombies.


So you can examine yourself. As far about your all strange stories
it quite childish.I know some gurus who was harshly critisising Hari they also dieid so wath................ following you r logic.
Who know when one will die even you didnt know when you will die and if it God forbiden if you die in a year then wath, should others
make conclusion that it is becouse you was writing your ilogical text in this forum,is nt it stupid . It is usualy when one cannot argue he is writing such a strange posts.
Is it possible for you to understand that one can appreciate person but this doesnt mean that he should agree with evrything he said or write ecspesialy if it is harmful and wrong?
If you are zombie you will never understand this, just examine yourself.

[kamalamala1]

the alternative is abvious.... and again

However
If a person is realy want to help people i mean realy feel that
people need knowlage and he can give ,he should go and teach
and God and Gods will support him deffinatly,no need to make a cult from himself no need to get a warship, people will appreciate him realy if he is helping , people are generaly very very graitful.He even
not nessesary should have mistical capacityes.And more then that he doesnt need to be authorised by anybody or any group/.
See how nice it is .

One not making people dependent on him they are free in all ways and he doesnt depend on them also[as so called gurus depend on the bunch of ther desciples], he just giving knowlage,and if he can teach more let him teach more why he should need the strange titles.
You know the best teacher is one who are making people independent not the one who makes them dependent.
Even if one doesnt have mistyc capasityes he can help people a lot .
But if one have mistic capacitys he can help in mistycal way too.
See how is all very simple and good.
Now look at Hari he is doing exactly wath i wrote above,he doesnt need titles he is mistyc and he helps people without beeing dependant on them, and he making evryone independant from him for
there real growth since the real growth begins when one taking full
responcibility for his life in general ,both his spiuritual and so called material life. And he helps people when they aproach him is nt it much better then the kingergurden looking relationships between so called Gurus and desciples.?

By the way here is some teckniks to make people realy dependant
you should say evrybody that you are perfect and they are inperfect you are saint and they are sinner ,you are pure and they are poluted,you are clever they are stupid,you are libarated they are conditioned ,you are the only hope for them,
and no even need to say it directly you can say it by hints or in the therd name using scriptures,and by this you can make forever dependent on you, and if you want to make people more dependent then you are saying that there are 10 offences and the one of them is considering you ordinary man,and they should chant this offences evryday in the morning to not forget it.
This is doing and was doing the sects and religions for centuryes.

But when you say to people that you are as better as me you are as clever as i you are as pure as me and so on people will appreciate you and even love you but not will be dependant but will realy evolve on ther way of evolution..
See the differense and see who is doing wath.

[harsi]

Here is an example of what I mean with an "objective" information, translated from German:

"So-called sects

The word sect originates from the Latin sequi - to follow. In ancient times those people where called by this term who followed a particular philosopher or his school. In Christianity one called with this term groups, who adhered and followed a deviated faith outside the Church. In the Middle Ages and the early Modern Time one punished such "deviaters" even to death. Thus the religious 'difference' (person with a different religious view) gained a criminalization.

The negative image even came to a head off or sharpened in the 16. Century, when all Christian communities, who formed or appeared in addition to the accepted or recognized religious parties without the legal legitimacy of the state, where called sects. Colloquially one understands under the term "sect" or "cult" groups and movements who's thinking and acting is contrary to the general, common ethic and moral views and beliefs.

Taking it from the understanding of social sciences one understands under the term sect, a small, exclusive, religious or ideological, scientific or even political group, who demands from its followers a total commitment and which particularly stresses its separation from the (outer) environment (society at large) and its rejection by it." (more)




Sects in Sachsen (in 2008) (Saxony, a province or 'Land' in East Germany) from: http://www.m1-klartext.de/sekten.htm..

[harsi]

Books edited by F.W. Haack / 2 / 3

[kamalamala1]

So wath ?
I knew that before you wrote wath it have to do with our dialoge.
When i am writing sect i mean that the group of people who are twisting the spirituality under there fame name glory and money who have no sense of responsibility who lost there truthfulness, who have no love at all who filled with fear and propagating fear, and who are becoming zombies and makes others Zombie.
This is mainly the leaders of sect.
See the whole Iscon with it ideology mainly propagating fear not love all there activities based of fear even there so called love to there gurus based on fear and they are presenting themselfs as a represaentatives of lord Chaitanya who was the personification of love? They are realy propogating fear under name of love and this is real tragedy.
The same was with the catolic chearch in midlle ages when they got power.
Wath a reasonable person can tell you that your capacity for descrimanation and having your own opinion is offence, onlyIscon zombies.
If i think that all this guru guyes cheating people about themselfs
since i got tons of arguments for you it is sound like offense beacuse you are filled by fear ,go and investigate am i right or no
maybe that can help you.

[kamalamala1]

However
If a person is realy want to help people i mean realy feel that
people need knowlage and he can give ,he should go and teach
and God and Gods will support him deffinatly,no need to make a cult from himself no need to get a warship, people will appreciate him realy if he is helping , people are generaly very very graitful.He even
not nessesary should have mistical capacityes.And more then that he doesnt need to be authorised by anybody or any group/.
See how nice it is .

One not making people dependent on him they are free in all ways and he doesnt depend on them also[as so called gurus depend on the bunch of ther desciples], he just giving knowlage,and if he can teach more let him teach more why he should need the strange titles.
You know the best teacher is one who are making people independent not the one who makes them dependent.
Even if one doesnt have mistyc capasityes he can help people a lot .
But if one have mistic capacitys he can help in mistycal way too.
See how is all very simple and good.
Now look at Hari he is doing exactly wath i wrote above,he doesnt need titles he is mistyc and he helps people without beeing dependant on them, and he making evryone independant from him for
there real growth since the real growth begins when one taking full
responcibility for his life in general ,both his spiuritual and so called material life. And he helps people when they aproach him is nt it much better then the kingergurden looking relationships between so called Gurus and desciples.?

By the way here is some teckniks to make people realy dependant
you should say evrybody that you are perfect and they are inperfect you are saint and they are sinner ,you are pure and they are poluted,you are clever they are stupid,you are libarated they are conditioned ,you are the only hope for them,
and no even need to say it directly you can say it by hints or in the therd name using scriptures,and by this you can make forever dependent on you, and if you want to make people more dependent then you are saying that there are 10 offences and the one of them is considering you ordinary man,and they should chant this offences evryday in the morning to not forget it.
This is doing and was doing the sects and religions for centuryes.


But when you say to people that you are as better as me you are as clever as i you are as pure as me and so on people will appreciate you and even love you but not will be dependant but will realy evolve on ther way of evolution..
See the differense and see who is doing wath.

[harsi]

So what? I knew that before you wrote (it), what (does) it have to do with our dialoge.

A good question to which I would like to answer with a quote from an introduction to the book of Massimo Introvigne: "Schluß mit den Sekten! Die Kontroverse über "Sekten" und neue religiöse Bewegungen in Europa." (engl. The conclusion about sects! The controversy about "sects" and new religious movements in Europe)

"The point is not to ignore the existing problems that arise with new religious communities. But the current discussion shows that in dealing with new religious communities, one has to come to a more factual (objective), and a more differentiated perspective which also complies (is more in accordance) with the empirical reality.

We don't live in any era of history. We are living in a crucial and sensitive time in which everyone is called to assume responsibility on their own. Just in the so-called matter of 'sects' the difference between one who really loves freedom, and the one who is satisfied (is resting content with) with its phantom (of freedom) becomes lately clear and visible." (more)

If we really love freedom including the freedom of thought we have to allow the other person the same luxury. He or she should have the complete freedom to come to their own conclusions in life and in their dealings with others. As well as what community of people one is preferring to associate. If I call someones community this or that name do I really do someone any service or favor, do I really help someone come to their own conclusions about this or that community of people one may associate or engages in? I doubt that such a thing may happen. When I joint the Hare Krishna Movement many years ago in Germany almost everyone spoke in regard to it as that very bad "sect". My mother and my father where horrified that I gave up my job, my career all that for what someone in this world is striving for, and joint the "horrible Hare Krishna sect."

All my friends, my brother and sisters almost ended the relationship with me. On the streets when I distributed Prabhupada's books some people who where reading the so called horrified stories about the oh so bad Hare Krishna's in all the newspapers where spiting out sometimes on me and where driving me away or where beating me up sometimes. Do you think I took them in any way seriously with all their name calling of "sect" or "cult" or whatever? No! I was inspired by the philosophy by which the people in that society where trying to live and wanted to become like them or that what I though they or some would be or have become (Pure devotees of Krishna) due to practicing the teachings of their preceptors.

Someone who wakes up to the spiritual side of life is not at all interested to listen to any name calling of anyone or of any society. He is interested to gain a better spiritual understanding of himself and of the Supreme or God. You don't do anyone a favor if you shout always in your comments this or that bad name or imply that this or that person or society of people may have this or that bad motivation. In this way you just chase away all those people who want to get some more information and gain thus a better understanding but who want to have also the freedom to find out the truth on their own.

We can give someone good arguments based on our experiences and developed spiritual understanding but we should do it without trying to discredit anyones society, anyones motivation or the philosophy and spiritual knowledge someone may try to follow and understand. Everyone of us has the God given freedom and the right given by the state in which he is living to follow and to associate with whatever society of people he may prefer and thus come to his or her own conclusions in regard to it in life.

[kamalamala1]

In this forum we was dicussing the sects you asked me why i call them sects and i explained,it is you who understand that wath i wrote is bad names for me it is just truth, and if one sayes the truth and it sounds bad for somebody it is not the problem of one who sayes,one cannot satisfy everybody.
Let say there are the society of fashists and you are asking me why i dont like them then following your logic i should appreciate there freedom and say something that will not desturb them?
By the way in the books of Prabhupad, Prabhupad valuating all the societyes giving them different names just remember how havvy he was on poor impersanolists on Buddists on so called Karmis on so called Sahajiyas and many others,for me it is ok since i know sometime the reasons as well i know my reasons,, but can you have enaf courage and ask him why he is doing that ,since it is oposit for your logic.Why you in yourself alow Prabhupad to speak harshly on different groups and cannot accept my arguments it mean that inside of you you dont allow me to say wath i think,althought i care less about that.
By the way in many wayes [excluding the goals, althought by the waythis two dimons, Lenins and Stalins declared goals wasnt bad they at least declared that people should be all happy] this is reminding Stalin times when all have to gloryfy Him and if one didnt they killed him the same sect by metodology.And there was the Stalins warshipers who was pointing there fingures to ones who wasnt warship Stalin.
.By your logic one should not evenfor examle call demons demons since they can feel uncomfortable ,please have look into the wellknown scriptures they are oposit.Or one should not call thieths thieths since they can feel offended.
Your logic ilogical.

We are living in free society and it is good since we can all express ourselfs and in that prosses can figure out the best truth for everybody.
This forum is mayed not for only Hare Krisnas but for all people
and one should not fear to express oneself just because Hare Krisnas will feel uncomfortable , and by the way if so then who knows maybe it is good for them maybe there minds will become more active and they will get benefit more from the crisisim that
from glorification,are you sure that it is not like that?Maybe some of there gurus will stop cheat themselfs and others,by the way some of them before becoming gurus was realy good people.
Just remember where is truth there are GOD.