Speaking of sects

[kamalamala1]

and also you didnt answer my main question/
I realy dont know in the life of Prabhupad where was the story when his spiritual master appoint him as Guru
and similarly i dont know in the beography of Bhaktisidhanta Sarasvati when Gaurakishoraa das Babaji appoint him to be
Guru and also i didnt know where and when Bhaktivinoda Prbhus Guru appointed him to be Guru.
Can you tell when and where it happened.
You know why iam asking since i do believe that whole this guru buissness was concoted for managment that all.
And all this disciplic sucsesion things also is used for political goals.
It is like in north korea the cult of kim er sen and his sons it is needed to maintain the managerial prosses in centralised
organisation that all.Like ussr.
But real Gurus is Mistical persons and they doesnt need followers just for following them

It is boring.

This all gurus reminding me the komissars in the soviet red army the propogandists who was ingaged for complitly
abvious poilitical goal.

[kamalamala1]

and by the way Gaurakisora das babaji never was anybodyes disciple it is also concocted.

and wath Lord Chaytanya said was just go and enlighten evrybody thats all not just go and become guru Maharaj the
one who should be warshiped and puted on the head isnt it abvious the differense.

[kamalamala1]

the meaning of ward Guru wath Lord Chaitanya said and the iscon guyes are using is complitly different and in many cases is oposit
.

[harsi]

The meaning of (the) word Guru what Lord Chaitanya said and (what) the ISKCON guy's are using (it for) is complitelly different and in many cases (it) is opposit.

I would not really say like that. Vishnupada (Hari) in his lecture at my initiation in 1988 in the temple on the farm in Sweden told us that this "initiation means just the beginning of our spiritual life..."

[kamalamala1]

Your spiritual life begin when you came to this warld since youare spirite and life is only spiritual there are no other life.
Ask Hari now about that.He had his reasons to say that in that time i supposed.
About above writen quote i mean that it is complitly inpossible tha Lord Chaitanya asked the inmature spiritualy non proparly motivated people as most of the guru guyes in iscon was to become guru it is inpossible .

[harsi]

On the Internet one can read: DIKSHA. Spiritual initiation; from the Sanskrit verb-root diksh, to dedicate oneself. (www.yogi.com/Glossary) In this way the quote I cited before, "initiation means just the beginning of our spiritual life..." makes indeed some sense. The start of developing and discovering ones "spiritual" being and ones connection and relation with the Supreme Being is a conscious decision, a personal endeavour, a dedication on ones own (A conscious initiative, initiation. (diksha = to dedicate oneself for...), and not only a way to live ones life in this world as anyone else. And that is what such a ritual was meant to be in ancient times or today...

Who really knows what Sri Caitanya really meant. I would say the quote Krishnadas Kaviraja is atributing in his CC to Sri Caitanya is making sense to me, since everyone of us needs someone, at least in the beginning of our search of 'spiritual' discovery in life, (who am I, where do I come from, what happens to my existence after death...) for more or a better understanding, with whose personal insight and teachings or personal interpretations of some ancient knowledge, we can guide ourself in life with. At least I see it as a great help in this regard, you not?

[kamalamala1]

Considering the ill motivations of most presant so called gurus there poor experiance and buissnes oriantation it is complitly abvious that Lord Chaitanya never willauthorise such a poor guyes to be guru.
It is the same to authorise the cheater to become the policmen it is possible in politics in economical and other sphersin our warld but as far you are saying about Lord it is not complitly possible and no need even to know wath realy said Lord is nt it abvious?
one can get knowlage from book from anybody and it is great
to apprecate that.
But it doesnt mean that one should idealise the person if person not that good even if he happened to give the knowlage and just because of it become his slave.
Ecspasialy if he is not proparly motivated and realy pufed up guy as all iscon gurus are and many others also .Where you see there titiksava karunika where you see renunsiation .They are shameless slave holders.
money makers by holding slaves and you think they are represanting Lord Chaitanya.? They are cheep people thats all.
No differense wath they saying the main thing is motivation and truthfulnes..
The thing is that my concept of guru is taken from Mahabharat and puranas and goswamis and in my understanding guru is not just speaker he must be real mistyc otherwise for me no use and never was use to have such guru since many people can speak not less then any so called guru.
People needs more then a speach.

The formal cheep understanding of guru is useless for me i dont understand why it is ok for you.

[harsi]

Considering the ill motivations of most present so called gurus, their poor experience and buissness orientation, it is completely obvious that Lord Chaitanya never will authorize such poor guys to be guru.
...The formal cheep understanding of guru is useless for me I don't understand why it is ok for you. Hari is mystic.

I guess your opinion and prejudice against a certain society and their "gurus" became by now for all our readers somehow obvious. You may have your personal reasons I don't know, I am more interested to discuss this issues from a more impartial platform or a more unbiased one. I remember many years ago Hari told us in a lecture the story about a woman disciple who for some time was very unhappy and was asking herself very often what she may have did wrong in her "execution of devotional service for her beloved guru" as she understood it. The reason was that in one of the Shrimad Bhagavatam lectures Vishnupada gave, he looked in the direction of her with a somehow very depressed expression of his face where she concluded that he meant her and that he would be somehow very unsatisfied with her and her "execution of devotional service."

A few month later she met him again and wanted to know why he looked so strange at her at that particular time and if he would be somehow unsatisfied with her spiritual life and her service. He could not really remember why he did what he did, and told her that sometimes while sitting cross legged on the Vyasasana he would feel sometimes some pain in his back or in his legs. That may have happened when he looked at her in this certain lecture and changed the expression of his face due to feeling some heavy pain, and she deduced that he meant her.

Than he told us in the lecture I was attending that ones relationship with ones "guru", I guess now he would say "guide", should not be sentimental (...idealise the person) rather one should better try to understand what he is teaching.

[kamalamala1]

Jee it is also abvious for everybody your exaggarated understanding of sectarian shameless "poor" buissness iscon guyes named gurus.
It seem to me that you are complitly poluted by sect in your mind since wath you are doing you just quoting the sectarian info all the time.Anyway maybe it is good for you but for me it smell quite unpleasant.

You are speaking about unbiased impartial platform but look wath you are writing all is based on blind authority of Prabhupad and Iscon Litarature you have no your impartial unbiased your own understanding.
As far about me i am writing wath iam feeling is right not because somebody told me.
As far about Hari i have complitly different experiance for a long period of time and not only me the other readers of this forum also and more then that he himself said that he is mistyc. And realy no need to say that it is abvious when you deal with such person if one have eyes he can see it .
I have no prejudice towards this so called gurus i am saying the real truth i knew most of them very well.Some are good guyes some not so much but all are not real gurus in my understanding of this ward.
If you are satisfied by such cheep guru idea then it is ok for me no problem it is your choise for me it is complitly useless and harmful.

[harsi]

OK Kamalamala let us just take a break for some time until we can continue this online conversation with a more cool headed mood and feeling... It seems to me that you are considering all the ancient spiritual knowledge, practice and understanding of India (Krishnadas Kaviraja Goswami's CC, quotes from Sri Caitanya, meaning of sanscrit words etc. considered to be by many people not really the sole property of any society of today) to be that of a "sect". If this is your opinion than so be it. We are living in a democratic world where everyone can express his opinion freely without any prosecution by anyone or any institution or online forum... Quoting what someone said, some photos, or even some "sectarian info" is also not just a practice of any specific society rather an accepted practice of any newspaper and magazine in the world, I guess in Russia also.

[kamalamala1]

I am considering that all iscon gurus and most of the sects who are using the ancient spiritual knowledge
for there poilitical and economical interests harmful ,yes.
But you are wrong they have nothing to do with real ancient spiritual knowledge, practice and understanding of India in old times[maybe for nowdayes india they are ok since there are tons of cheaters in India nowadayes ] , just because they are guoting
scriptures and made a whole tradition doesnt mean anything, they just using it for there interest for money and power mainly. And by the way they are not alone there are tons of sects in India also and in reality sects is epidemy now dayes. And one who in his spiritual search can escape sects is very lucky one
As far about using scriptures each person can use them as he likes according to his motives, in Jesus times the ortodox guyes used scriptures and killed Jesus [no problem for sects to do that] they also was gurus for that time, no differense from present ones..Using and quoting scriptures is not at all sign of truth,the motivation is real sign,but who can know it.?
There motivations in most cases i know very well.
Actualy i am writing very simple things why we are arguing i dont know.

[kamalamala1]

I am amaising how you can assosiate the pure ancient scriptures with this useless guyes?
It is like if one saying and quoting the texts about humility and in the same time holding slaves for his own worship isnt abvious ???? and you can cosider such a bogus guru guys as a represatative of the text which they quoting from scriptures?
The ones who are using Lord Chaitanyas name for there own name fame glory and money you are considering as His represantatives?
And you can present such people as a represantative of anciant vedic culture.
The real knowlage doesnt make slaves doesnt make people feel that they are guilthy and stupid and doesnt teach them to hate themselfs,this cannot be God s message,and real anciant knowlage have nothing to do with this kind of ideas but the sects exactly into that.

[Nanda-grama]

May I add?
I understand , Kamalamala, what you want to say. You consider that only self-realized personality, who has the real mistical connection with Godness, who has very pure motivation,-can call himself guru. I agree to you in it. But I think that you are not very right when you confirm that all people(except one)who calls himself "guru" are deceivers, that now any relashionships of "guru and disciple" are sectarian's and harmful. That all modern gurus(except one )are simply shameless and insolent glorifists of themself. It sounds too categorically and generalized. Only black and white. I agree that this sistem when somebody appoints anybody to be "guru"( and the new guru at once becomes enlightened and pure )is strange thing. And there are many people who really does the job of guru and has very pure motivation ,and who doesn't call himself "guru" and doesn't need worship of disciples.But I think also that Godness is present everywhere even in the heart of " shameless deceivers". And mercenary motivation may be next to sincere love to God or to love to disciples. May be different versions. And if man is not mistic, but he trys to do the job of guru good and honestly, Godness speaks through him. He can really help him disciples. And this sistem can help somebody to grow spiritually and to develop his love to God. Because God is everywhere.
Imagine somebody who had not such good luck to become the disciple of Vishnupada. He has his (another) guru, he love him, his guru is his best friend.Such man generally doesn't understand this disscution about what. He love his Deities, he feel good, he intends to go to "spiritual world". May be, he has some problems with his wife, or some dissatisfaction in his creative self-realization. But he feels gratitude to him guru and doesn't want something another. And his guru feel good to him. Can we say in this case that somebody cheats anybody?
If such man will want something else, God(Who is present in everybody and everywhere) will give him new possibilities, new knowledge, new teachers.
If we will shout: it is a sect, and it is the sect also!-sect will become more strong, more united ,because this people will have a common enemy and chance to prove that this organization is not sect.

[kamalamala1]

I am not saying that only one person on this planet have qualification
to be real guru.
There are many mistycs on this planet and they are doing there job even not recognised as guru since they are real gurus.The good examle Jasmuheen she is real mistyc and she totaly rejected this guru idea but tousands following her teaching learning from her and she helps thousands .why not like that.Look at Eckhart Tolle look at Luisa Hey at Edgar Caycy and so many.This people helping others not ecpecting artifitial warship and so on they are helping thousand and millions .
They are not saying you should accept me as God and warship me then i will take you to God wath is this can you say ?
This is from lord Chaitanya can you believe or accept that..
The point is that everything should have its meaning,just try to figure out wath is guru, it is teacher wath he can teach if he is not realy sure wath he is saying and doing,if he is also not sure have contact with Divine or not.And even that is not so bad the warst thing is that he is representing himself as represantative of God,but in reality he doesnt know realy who he is why and what he is doing ,then iam asking wath is motivation for such person to accpet the role of guru if he is just repeating wath is writen then he should say that he is tape recorder not guru ,i am not saying about desciple with him evrything could be right but it is also not sure,The warst thing is that this people thinks that they are warthy to be warshiped.Can you imagine that one wants to become teacher mainly for warship and money and glory wath kind of teaching he will give.And this is subconssesly.
Why one should become guru if he doesnt achieve realy ,wath is the motivation isnt it better to just help others like Jas is doing without such a title just as a friend or wellwisher is nt it more ownest modern way. Why guru,and you know why since one want power warship and money and glory this is wath i dont like most in there role the ill motivation.why one for helping people should present himself like he is alwready in the kingdom of god and warthy to be warshiped as god if he is not realy, why one should cheat his desciples about his spiritual capacites ?I mean that \he will take him or her to vaikuntha.
Is it not cheating?
By the way it could be in india in a way you wrote since in india thward guru means simply teacher also and then it can be ok if the person not mplaying strange role of self realised soul the represantative of God ,otherwise ........

And itis good for desciples also to not be desciplce of such gurus since in that case they will not feel that they alwready on right way and they will search and maybe will come to right way but if they dont search they will just end in the sect that is it.

[kamalamala1]

Let say iam not a musician and trying to take a role of musician without beeing musician how it will look ,

By the way guru is realy most difficult proffesion of all if one realy doing that it is not joke and much easyer to get the qualification of musician and scintests then the qualification of real guru.
It is not play or joke,the lifes of other people in your hand .
And if one playes that role without being that, they are stupid people since they dont know wath danger is in such play