Could we define greatness?

[harsi]

If you want to have a real idea about this temple I offer you to come to S-Peterburg and to see it. It is great!

It is said that greatness, like beauty is in the eye of the beholder. It is also that which creates some overall good, meaning, truth or beauty for the world in general and to all of us particular. That definition is sufficiently vague as to render it probably acceptable to all people, however, it may not be a universally accepted definition, because there will always be a different opinion. Greatness is also a matter of perspective, it also depends on who's side you are on or what your spiritual understanding is.

I´m not judging, I just want an honest answer from Kamalamala or anyone of you who may know an answer to my questions. You´re free to elaborate as much as you want.

[Nanda-grama]

I know Inglish bad and I don't sure that I correctly understand your question. But I can say that when I use the word "great", I mean something good, nice, super,important, true. In Russian I would find more exact word . But what concerns this temple, I have particular attitude, therefore your words about it catched me. I lived in this temple before 1998 year when it was ISSCON's. It was best temple which I sow in ISSCON. There were very good relationship between devotees, it was sole place where men didn't humiliate women. There were wonderful Deities. I had many happy moments there. When there were this events of 1998 and this temple was the only which supported Hari and people began to come to this temple from other towns as revolutionaries, it was particular time. We was sure then that to go out from ISSCON -it was same thing as to go to hell. But we did it because we choosed to support and remain with this person whom we were grateful for many things. Many of us choosed between welfare, the guarantee of "liberation and return to God",some status in ISSCON's society and feeling of truth and love in our hearts. This choices definited what we were, what people we were. It was very important time. ISSCON's gurus pressed on us, B.B.Govinda Maharadji telephoned personally with me to try "to save" me. Kamalamala fighted for Hari in internet, but we sat near his room and weited last news,and when he gone out, he shined! And because of this light and bliss in our hearts we knew that we were on correct way. And now in this temple I continue to receive new realizations in my life.

[harsi]

I understand your English very well and also what you mean to say with your words. You as well as all of the other wonderfull souls who followed Hari back in 1998 followed your conscience to the best of your belief. And in my opinion that is what God, the Supreme, Radha-Krishna wants from us. That we should also listen and follow our conscience, some call it intuition, when having to make certain decisions in life.

To often in this so called International Society for Krishna Consciousness (ISKCON) which often tried to present itself as an alternative to the present society of people, at least in the fantasy of its "members," the conclusion was propagated by its leaders that you must leave or "surender" your conscience outside the door when you enter the "society of devotees of Krishna" and simply follow...

In fact in this society and association we all just fell victim of a great illusion and of a great misunderstanding of what it means to live a so called spiritual life and how to connect, satisfy or devote our time in service to Krishna, the Supreme." I found in this regard an interesting website which could help to illustrate that.

"Sense gratification means that one is engaged in an activity which ultimately ends up satisfying the material body or mind. Devotees are engaged in activities which are ultimately meant to satisfy the spiritual master and Krsna. There is a 180 degree difference in these two kinds of activities. Sense gratification for the gross and subtle body is given up by devotees because it is a waste of time and energy since it has nothing to do with satisfying Krsna. Therefore it is to be given up. But Krsna conscious sense gratification, for example, eating prasada or chanting and hearing kirtana, is authorized by the Lord Himself in many places and it is helpful for advancement in spiritual life. Therefore it is acceptable because it purifies one of material conditioning and helps one attain Krsna. Material sense gratification binds one to the bodily conception and keeps one in the material world. Therefore it is to be given up." more...

But what is the alternative to our former understanding of "advancement in spiritual life" that "purifies one of material conditioning and helps one attain Krsna"? That's the question. And I guess that is what we all would like to find out here on Harimedia Forum.

[Nanda-grama]

It seems to me, now I understood what you wanted to hear. Do you interest principles of our spiritual life or my spiritual life, or your spiritual life? Why does a spiritual life must to define itself by some rules and principles? We are adult people, if you feel that it is better for you to have vegetarian diet-it's OK, if it is not so-it is your personal affair. If you want to sing the praise of Holy Names-it's great! If no- it's nothing. For example,my husband and I like to offer our Deities food, but you or somebody isn't obliged to do it, if he doesn't like it. We gather together and connect ourself with Deities, and this experience for me is more strong and real than it was for me in ISSCON.Everyone of us goes by own way but we are connected one with other by friendship, similar perception of Divine, and we like to share ourself with we and to associate. It helps our spiritual development. When Hari comes to Russia, it is generally super! But the main difference from Isscon is what I don't depend on somebody in my spiritual life( if I'm not agree with Hari in something I can to tell him about it), and I am responsible for my life. And I don't compeled to associate with people who I don't like, I am free to do what I want to do. Only I look in my heart and definite a condition of my spiritual life and this " quantity of love to God". And why do I must to attain Radha-Krisna if They are always close by me? It is necessary only to address to Them. You know the rest if you listen the Hari's broadcasts.

[harsi]

At least someone understood what I would like to know. But neverthless I dont really understand why there has to be so much secrecy about what is going on in your "society" of "spiritualists" or by whatever name you would like to be addressed, and the "temple" of Radha-Krishna you established in St. Petersburg. As far as I understood you are an open society for everyone and not a secret society so why one could not discuss all things related to the "worship" of your Radha-Krishna deities in an open way, or is there something you would like to hide from the public?

Why does a spiritual life must define itself by some rules and principles? We are adult people, if you feel that it is better for you to have vegetarian diet-it's OK, if not so - it is your personal affair.

In my opinion even if one is saying that everyone is free to do whatever he likes, which I am not sure that you are saying, that is a certain guidline which some people may take to identify themselves with while associating with you in your society or community. That view is called a liberal one. But I guess that this kind of liberal view may also has some certain limits. So when you start to define certian limits to that liberal view you start to define certain rules and regulations which no society or community can affort to not have or expect from its members.

So which are those or should be in the spiritual life or the social life of your community?

If you want to sing the praise of Holy Names-it's great! If no- it's nothing.

So would you like to say that there is no value you may miss when you are not inclined to chant the holy names of the Lord?

For example, my husband and I like to offer our Deities food, but you or somebody isn't obliged to do it, if he doesn't like it.

I guess if someone is not in some way related to the worship of the deities as it is known to some of us, he would not offer them anyway some food since he would consider that idol worship. Still even some Christians have the "rule" of thanking god for their food as teached by Jesus Christ. So there must be some kind of known benefit from such a practice accepted by all faiths and spiritual communities.

We gather together and connect ourself with Deities, and this experience for me is more strong and real than it was for me in ISKCON.

Now I wander what a person would say who comes in front of your deities but knows nothing at all about Radha-Krishna or the way you are worshiping them or "connect" with them. What would you like to say or "teach" to such a person?

Everyone of us goes by own way but we are connected one with other by friendship, similar perception of Divine, and we like to share ourself with we and to associate. It helps our spiritual development.

How would you define "your perception of Divine"? Is it something which could be also described by words or does it has to be experienced individually? You mention also "spiritual development" although you are writing before that "why do I must (have) to attain Radha-Krisna if They are always close by me? It is necessary only to address Them." I dont really understand what you would like to say by all that since you know as much as myself that Radha-Krishna who may be present before you are somehow "different" from the "real one" who are or may be present in their own abode. Or would you say that there is no other world beyond this one known to us? So where do we come from than if we happend to be always here? Is there anyway something called "spirirital world" a world we and the Supreme God originate from? You see the way you are trying to explain things may give rise to all kind of unanswered questions for someone who is not familiar with your way of thinking and explaining things.

[Nanda-grama]

It isn't a secret what happens in our so called society. I told you about it in my previous post, but you didn't see it... If you interest a time-table of the day of worship to Deities in S-Peterburg, you can ask Kamalamala about it because he is main leader in this temple. I know a little about it because I rarely come to S-Peterburg from Moscow, and I didn't have this desire to inspect this temple.
Generally, I think that spiritual life has nothing in common with rules. You ask me this things which plase very deeply in my heart and, if honestly, I have not some inspiration and desire to tell you about it. I don't like your tone and position of an inspector. If you want to inspire me to share with you my spiritual experience and understanding you can share with me your experience, but you can't demand the report from me. It seems to me that the reason because you listen Hari's lectures and hear nothing is in what you don't try to have real connection with Divine ,formulas and rules as before attract you.

[harsi]

Believe me Nanda-grama I am not trying "to save" you , as you see I was reading your previous post, I am just a curious person who likes to discuss this issues and the point of view of other people like you. At least now I know that the Radha-Krishna deities in St. Petersburg are indeed worshiped in some way according to certain rules and regulations or as you say daily "time-table". You are right Kamalamala could have written also some information about the temple he is supervising, what he maybe will do also someday.

Its of course OK with me that you would not like to further elaborate on the issues we were discussing. It seems to me that there is a kind of animosity among certain people in your community and those who feel in some way connected to the community of ISKCON. I guess therefore you say "I don't like your tone and position of an inspector" I dont think that I would like to inspect anyone I just have some free time to discuss with you this issues.

It seems to me that the reason because you listen Hari's lectures and hear nothing is in what you don't try to have real connection with Divine, formulas and rules as before attract you.

It is not that only "formulas and rules" attract me rather sometimes also the various ways how Hari's words in his lectures are interpreted or applied in life by various persons. There is no way to escape completelly from rules and regulations in a society of people. In every society there is a constitution and certain rules and regulations written down as laws which we have to follow since otherwise we may come in conflict with the forces of order, the police. (position of an inspector )

The "ISKCON" invented and tried to apply something similar to its "members" with its fabulous GBC resolutions. I write fabulous or maybe I should rather right ridiculous, since the rules and laws expressed in writing in this resolutions could be mostly ignored by the people in this so called "society" what one cannot do without suffering also certain negative consequences when one is not following the laws, or rules of conduct, in the society of the country in which one may live.

[Nanda-grama]

Usually I don't worry when somebody wants to "save" me, if I see his sincerity, even if he is mistaken about me. But in your case I feel other thing. I speak with you as with normal, clever man and suddenly you begin to speak as a person who only yesterday gone out from ISSCON and had this closed heart and a fear to make a step without rules. And then it shocks me, I feel even some kind of phisical pain. Indeed I associate with people of ISSCON, they are old devotees, they already don't worry about rules . They have their Divine in their hearts and look like normal people. I had this anxieties about rules, when at the first year I only began to live in an ashram. There were old disgusting women, who very interested how correctly I did this or that. Their personal spiritual life was less interesting for them. Possibly, you are very good person. But if I speak about deep things, I weit that you will open your heart also. If you want to discuss spiritual topics, you would like to share your real experience, not only knowledge from books. Otherwise it is not spiritual association, this is a talk of sectants: what rules do you follow? Are you sure that you make all necessary in order to turn back to God?

[harsi]

"Everything is part and parcel of Krsna. Because everything is generated by the energy of Krsna and everything is the energy of Krsna" said Prabhupada to Bob in "Perfect Questions Perfect Answers" (Pdf) Ok now one may say well thats Prabhupada what do I care what he said, he founded that certain society and introduced this certain rules and regulations I dont like. Now I am happy to follow what Hari is saying.

In my opinion it doesn't matter so much what Prabhupada is saying or what Hari is saying rather how I personally may understand what someone may say. That is the whole principle beyond school education to give someone some orientation he personally may be inclined to follow and understand. In order to understand personally something in a proper way I need some background information and some guidlines. For example if I have no idea about Krishna or Radharani and enter a temple where deities of Them are worshiped I may also would like to know something related to Them in order to understand Them better and why they are worshiped as the Divine Couple and Supreme Godhead.

So what would you tell such a person? Would you say to them, well everyone has "the Divine in their hearts" and can do whatever he likes in order to atain and come to know Them, and that is what They look like or would you tell that person some story from the Krishna book or some other source? And if you are saying well I am not interested in some scriptural references or stories from books of the past in order to understand and explain who Radha Krishna is, I just follow my heart, and "like to share (my) real experience, not only knowledge from books" than I say why worship or "imagine" such a form of the Supreme at all if I am not interested also to know where that kind of worship and form of God, the Supreme, may be explaind or what the reason or the guiding principles beyond that worship of God may be?

It doesnt matter in my opinion to which society or community of people one may feel connected with. Such discussions are for me just logical and not at all a talk of sectants.

[Nanda-grama]

I like as Hari does when he comes to S-Peterburg. He tells about Radha-Krishna as about original female and male nature of God(did you hear his last broadcast?) and he tells a litlle about a nature of murti. He doesn't tell long histories of games of Radha-Krishna and this axful words: this murti is God and if you don't see it-you insult God! And he at once offers people to feel an energy of Deities, to associate with Them. And it is interestingly that people who know nothing about vedic culture, about Prabhupada and ISSCON, about this Deities,-feel Their energy and come to a contact with Them. I spoke with such people, they had not some difficulties with the lack of the knowledge when they tried to connect themself with Deities at the first time. I think, it is same thing when you make the acquaintance of you with somebody. It is great if you heard something about him before, but even if it is not so, the main thing in this contact is the feeling of another person,immediate perception of his energy, isn't it? Deities are living and They can tell about Themself a lot. But Kamalamala, as I know it, makes programs in this temple and tells people about persons of Gods and then they make meditations and all it happens very great.
But is what value in a knowledge if a person doesn't come to direct contact with Divine? And if the person comes to this contact with God really whether it doesn't mean that he already "attained" God?

[harsi]

I like as Hari does when he comes to S-Peterburg. He tells about Radha-Krishna as about original female and male nature of God and he tells a little about a nature of murti. He doesn't tell long histories of games of Radha-Krishna and this awful words: this murti is God and if you don't see it-you insult God!

There is a story in the Bible: "When the people saw that Moses was so long in coming down from the mountain, they gathered around Aaron and said, "Come, make us gods who will go before us. As for this fellow Moses who brought us up out of Egypt, we don't know what has happened to him." Aaron answered them, "Take off the gold earrings that your wives, your sons and your daughters are wearing, and bring them to me." So all the people took off their earrings and brought them to Aaron. He took what they handed him and made it into an idol cast in the shape of a calf, fashioning it with a tool. Then they said, "These are your gods, O Israel, who brought you up out of Egypt." When Aaron saw this, he built an altar in front of the calf and announced, "Tomorrow there will be a festival to the Lord." The story continues...

My question is just can we indeed creat an image of God we may worship and feel the divine energy or should we wait until God may reveal to us one day as the Supreme Godhead sees fit?

Prabhupada wrote: "Although all beings in the universe are resting in Krishna’s energy, still they are not in Him. Krishna is maintaining all living entities, and His energy is all-pervading, yet He is elsewhere. This is Krishna’s inconceivable mystic power. He is everywhere, yet He is aloof from everything. We can perceive his energy, but we cannot see Him because He cannot be seen with material eyes. However, when we develop our spiritual qualities, we sanctify our senses so that even within this energy we can see Him. God is everywhere impersonally, but if we make His personal form from anything, or if we create an image of God within ourselves, He will be present personally for us." More...

Now I know from my own experience that this 'praxis' of "trying to develop our spiritual qualities," and "sanctify our senses" in order to become qualified to 'see' God is not so easy. At least I am a failure in this regard therefore I am somehow surprised when you write that some people are able to "feel Their energy and come to a contact with Them." What may I do wrong in this regard?
I was listening to Hari's last broadcast, I liked and understood what he said very well.

[Nanda-grama]

yes, I absolutely agree with you, that our faculty to see is very imperfect. I know a woman, when she looks on somebody, she sees all his subtle bodies, and this person looks in her eyes like big many-coloured ball with small phisical body inside. And in this bodies all information about this person places. Therefore she can tell a lot about character of the person, his illness, his kinsmans, his talents, his problems and so on, -simply to look on his person. And if the person will feel anger,she will see it as a change of a color of his emotional body. I can't see so, but if you will feel anger to me, I will FEEL it, even if you will not write about it. If somebody loves me, I FEEL it, even if he doesn't tell about it. Also when somebody hates me. And all people can feel such things. There is one interesting thing. When I think about somebody I find that visual image is not main thing in this "thought". It is more as a sensation of this person, an impression about him. Although the visual perception is my strong ability as I am a painter. But I think it is so because this visual perception is very small part of what we perceive indeed when we associate with other people. For example, this rite which we, women, do with our faces when we intend to go out from our houses. We can change our faces very much but it will be beautifully only if we will feel ourselves beatifull, if this rite will give us this feeling of confidence and love to ourselves. And other people perceive exactly this energy, this our attitude to ourselves when they think that simply look on made up our faces. I don't knowthis example is intelligible for a man or not.
I want to say that it may be difficultly for us to see God if we don't see even own subtle bodies but we can FEEL Them.
When my friends and I gather together and meditate on Lords, Kamalamala wants to discuss qualities of this person on who we intend to tune ourselves.In order to" not miss ". But I find that even if I know not very good a "history" of this person, my soul exactly knows " this place of fixing". Inside me there is the knowledge by what Lord Shiva differs from Lord Ganesha, or Parvati, or Krishna . I can't have enough of infirmation about it, but there is a difference of energies of this Lords, and it is impossible to not feel.
I don't think that you do something wrongly. It is impossible that you feel nothing when you try to connect yourself with Deities.May be, you ignore your sensation. You can try to feel some man, then Deities, then again this man in order to feel the difference in their energies.Then you can try to send your energy, your love to Deities. Before I didn't understand how I can move my energy, but there is one exersise which helped me very much. I will describe it, I don't know it will be useful for you or not, but it is what I can offer.
Please, relax.
Imagine somebody who you love. Feel this love. What colour have this love? what smell?how does it sound? what taste have it? what temperature? what weight? does it eradiate or absorb light? in what place of your body is your love?
Mentally rise over your body very high up and look from above on your body and on your life as on road. On this road there is the point if " here and now". Look back on the point your birth, then more back -on the point of your conception, then more back -on the point when you already had not previous body but still didn't take the present body. Sink in this place and look around. Close by you there is a source of light. It is source of life. Draw near to it, again feel your energy of love and send your love to this light. Wait an answer and accept it's love. Let this energy,this love fill you. Again send your love and accept it's love. Do it so long how you like it. Then return to the point "here and now".
Good luck
I congratulate you on Gaura-Purnima!