Speaking of sects

All social issues, family topics, thoughts about life in a community, ideas to make things work better, family issues, education, welfare, retirement, health concerns and so on should be listed here in unique topics.
Post Reply
User avatar
harsi
Posts: 2284
Joined: Sun Jun 05, 2005 1:40 am
Location: Nuremberg, Germany
Contact:

Speaking of sects

Post by harsi »

Kamalamala wrote:
To be (an) optimist is good even towards the sects, which from my point of view are (making) people, by their propaganda, (to get ) more far from God then (to) bring them closer, and more then that (they) can stop the personal gowth of (the) individual. In many cases sects (are) exploiting not only people in the name of God's service but (are) also trying to exploit God for their material benefit. I think you realy don't know how much cheating (is) going on in the sects, if you want I can tell you many real stories.
On the Wikipedia one can read: "The word sect comes from the Latin secta (from sequi to follow), meaning (1) a course of action or way of life, (2) a behavioural code or founding principles, (3) a specific philosophical school or doctrine. Sectarius or sectilis also refer to a scission or cut, but this meaning is, in contrast to popular opinion, unrelated to the etymology of the word. A sectator is a loyal guide, adherent or follower."

One can read further: "Sectarianism is sometimes defined in the sociology of religion as a worldview that emphasizes the unique legitimacy of believers' creed and practices and that heightens tension with the larger society by engaging in boundary-maintaining practices.

A religious or political cult, by contrast, also has a high degree of tension with the surrounding society, but its beliefs are, within the context of that society, new and innovative. Whereas the cult is able to enforce its norms and ideas against members, a sect normally doesn't strictly have "members" with definite obligations, only followers, sympathisers, supporters or believers." More...

So I would say that ISKCON, I guess Kamalamala is refering to, indeed doesn't have or had real independent "members" in the legal sense of the word, like a political party or some other organizations or foundations may have, only followers etc. So in this way it could be indeed also be called a sect, at least according to what is being written here on Wikipedia.
kamalamala1
Posts: 331
Joined: Tue Dec 09, 2008 5:46 pm

Re: Speaking of sects

Post by kamalamala1 »

actualy sects doesnt mean alwayes bad thing.
It can be realy good ,since if some people concetrating on particular spiritual activity it is good
and if they are realy dedicated to it without critisising the other ways, then it is very good.
But in my case when i am saying about sects i mean the organisations with more hiden political and economical goals then the spirituals,some kind of cheating show buissness.Althought they declare purly spiritual goals,they for there political {it is mean power}and economical goals exploiting people in the name of Gods service.Forcing people to fear and feel useless to be complitly dependent from the wills of there leaders.Forcing people to worship them even more then demigods.
And this people feel comfotable with this can you say wath kind of spiritualist are they,?
And wath kind of sect is that?
Nanda-grama
Posts: 272
Joined: Wed Jul 30, 2008 11:13 pm
Location: Moscow

!

Post by Nanda-grama »

I was a small person in this "sect" and I didn't know something about it's inside political battles, and I didn't interest it very much. I was with my Krishna ,and it seemed to me, I received much love and blessings from everywhere. But, may be, was it so because I good sold books? I didn't feel that somebody exploited me, I was an "renounced brahmacharini",but when I needed some clothes for my sankirtana, I collected donations for it because Moscow's temple didn't find money for me althought I brought enough money to this temple by my sankirtana. And it is interestingly I didn't think then that it was incorrectly , it simply grieved me very much. :) I remember that mataji's group of sankirtana in Moscow didn't receive their percentages from the sale of books because they were "matajis", but men gone to India every year by their percentages. They were "prabhus". :) But generally I met many good people in ISSCON, and friendship which began then- continues now. But modern members of ISSCON fascinatingly tell me about political intrigues and big money which were stealed by some it's leader and it doesn't confuse them, they continue to remain it's members. :)
All it is very funny
User avatar
harsi
Posts: 2284
Joined: Sun Jun 05, 2005 1:40 am
Location: Nuremberg, Germany
Contact:

Re: Speaking of sects

Post by harsi »

kamalamala1 wrote:Forcing people to fear and feel useless to be complitely dependent from the wills of there leaders. Forcing people to worship them even more then demigods.
And this people feel comfortable with this can you say what kind of spiritualist are they?
And what kind of sect is that?
I would say that the people you are describing are grown up people who may know themselfs what they are doing. But I can understand your point. You mean that some people are wrongly influenced by their spiritual leaders or their community or society. That may be so indeed but that is again their business. We are living now in a free society, I hope so at least, where everyone is allowed to do and to follow whatever or whomever he likes.

I would say we should rather try to find out or describe what is really a good alternative to the wrong understanding of spiritual life or social life some people may have or follow.

For example in St. Petersburg you have installed Radha Krishna deities and other deities as well, but as far as I understood from someone who wrote me you are not realy worshipping the deities in the traditional way known by Vaishnavas. Or offer them prasadam at regular times. Could you describe me how you understand Deity worship or the worship of the Divinity in your society? As far as I know you have registered in Russia also an organization or society in St Petersburg where many of you are members of. What are the principles, guidlines or spiritual practice of this society?
Nanda-grama
Posts: 272
Joined: Wed Jul 30, 2008 11:13 pm
Location: Moscow

!

Post by Nanda-grama »

I heard many times from members of ISSCON that "this temple in S-Peterburg turned to something incomprehensible and terrible, that there now nobody worships Deities, that They are absolutely unhappy" and so on. When I asked this people whether they were in this temple, they answered that they didn't are and this information came to him from their leaders. When I showed them photos of radiant Deities in wonderful clothes and flowers and also a video of an instalation of Deities, they came to admiration and calmed down. When I was in this temple I felt astonishing rest and purity and there it was very lightly to connect myself with this Deities. If Kamalamala will want he can tell what wonderfull programs and meditations they do in this temple. I think it is profitablely for the leaders of ISSCON to pour by dirt over this temple and Hari because otherwise he can become too popular between devotees,and it can be already dangerously for the leaders who worrys about quantity of people and money
Last edited by Nanda-grama on Tue Mar 03, 2009 2:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
harsi
Posts: 2284
Joined: Sun Jun 05, 2005 1:40 am
Location: Nuremberg, Germany
Contact:

Re: Speaking of sects

Post by harsi »

One reason I like to read the news on the Websites of Reuters, The Associated Press, or the BBC, even that of China News, instead of reading them on Ria Novosty or Pravda News is that on many Russian news agency or newspaper websites news are often presented with a kind of negative bias. Especialy Pravda is presenting many news as if the USA would still be the enemy of mankind and that of whole Russia.

What someone is doing or not is his own business why can I not just present information without a kind of negative bias to it. Everyone is free to do and to say whatever he likes that is the caracteristic of a free democratic society of today. I can well be or present a certain alternative to something even in spiritual matters but the free will of everyone still remains valid since that is given to us from the Supreme Lord, whoever that may be or whatever divine reality we may worship within our hearts.

The information about deity worship in St Petersburg I received from someone who is a member of our forum here and not from ISKCON. What this "loose society" of people, described by some of you as "sect" because like I said, I dont now anyone within that community or society who registered himself or herself officialy as "member" or who even has a kind of legal membership document, is doing or saying I am not really interested in. I left them many years ago and feel myself as having grown out of their community of people, spiritually as well as socially. That is why I feel happy in your association here on Harimedia, although this association is until now since many years only on the web and not in reality. But I hope that could also change one day.
Nanda-grama
Posts: 272
Joined: Wed Jul 30, 2008 11:13 pm
Location: Moscow

!

Post by Nanda-grama »

If you want to have a real idea about this temple I offer you to come to S-Peterburg and to see it. It is great!
User avatar
Olesya
Posts: 30
Joined: Thu Mar 06, 2008 3:32 am

Re: Speaking of sects

Post by Olesya »

Dear Harsi,
I think the only way to know what Deity worship in St. Petersburg is like is to come and see by yourself! Otherwise, you'll always have only opinions of other people coming from their own experiences, influences etc.

I've never been a member of ISKCON, so I don't have any 'inside' experience of worship performed in ISKCON temples, what I saw I saw as an outsider only.
But the deities in St. Petersburg are really great, I agree with Nanda, they are loving, beautiful, glorious - you name it!

So, Come and see. If you need any help with paperwork for coming to Russia or getting a Russian visa - let me know, we can help you. Maybe, you can come in May, when Hari is planning to be in St. Petersburg? We can have harimedia.net get-together party :)
User avatar
harsi
Posts: 2284
Joined: Sun Jun 05, 2005 1:40 am
Location: Nuremberg, Germany
Contact:

Re: Speaking of sects

Post by harsi »

I guess it was sometimes in the summer of the year 1981 I was visiting my grandfather on a Sunday afternoon. While entering his living room I saw on his table a book with a very beautiful cover which had the title "Die Schönheit des Selbst" (The Beauty of the Self) It was a German translation of an English book called "The Science of Self Realization" which contained many assembled essays, exegeses, interviews, and letters by A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami to serve as a guide on the path of self realization, as it was written on the back of the cover. My grandfather told me that a few days ago a men came to the door of his apartment and offered him the book in exchange for a small amount of money. I was looking through the book and its content somehow cought my attention. My grandfather told me if I like It I could have it. I accepted and in this way I came in contact with knowledge about Krishna and the organization responsible for printing and selling this kind of books.

How did you came in contact with knowledge about the divine couple Radha-Krishna?
I am not sure that I could come this May to St. Petersburg when Hari is planning to come there, although I would like to come. Its for me right now also a financial problem, the flight ticket from Munich will be around 280 euro one way . But you could let me know the exact time Hari will be there and I will see if its posible for me to come also. The Russian Aeroflot offers a much cheaper flight it just depends on the exact time of flight.
User avatar
Olesya
Posts: 30
Joined: Thu Mar 06, 2008 3:32 am

Re: Speaking of sects

Post by Olesya »

That's a good question. There are many pathways which bring us to the here and now.
Once I met a friend of mine, I was totally lost and felt like I was in prison, living a supposedly happy life of a young mother who somehow managed to have a career, have a baby and be in a relationship. He was telling me how his biggest dream came true and he played music together just a few days before in St. Petersburg, in front of the Deities with his Teacher. How happy he was and how he had nothing else to desire in this life time. How his life was complete.
I didn't even know who the Deities were back than or what the word 'murti' meant. But I looked at him and saw the way his eyes shone.

and almost 15 years before that i was graduating from high school and a man knocked on our apartment door. My Mom and I opened the door and he told us about Krishna. And we were so entranced by him, be the way he talked and behaved that we bought all the books he offered, giving him all the money we had at home at that moment. I still remember that pile of 10 or 12 books with colored pictures inside and the texts full of strange words and unknown concepts.

There are million other things which brought me to the 'here and now'. To getting to know and to love the first Deities I ever saw in this life. To getting to know Hari and seeing how everything he talks about in the lectures which I downloaded and listened to all the time fit perfectly into my concept of life and give it shape and a different perspective.

I still haven't seen 'it all', I still haven't read all those books, I still have never been to India, I still have lots of things to explore and experience. But when you love someone, you don't need to see all the people in the world to know that this person is your favorite. And you don't need to see the entire Universe to know where it feels like home for you.

Sorry if this is too emotional, but I am in this sort of mood today. And I hope this answers your question.
User avatar
harsi
Posts: 2284
Joined: Sun Jun 05, 2005 1:40 am
Location: Nuremberg, Germany
Contact:

Re: Speaking of sects

Post by harsi »

Eckhard Tolle said in a published interview to Oliver Klatt, editor of the German Reiki magazine:

"When one does not put weight on the present moment with thought imaginations one is experiencing the liveliness of the moment and than the gratitude is there. In this way you are perfectly opening yourself up to the energy beyond the things. When I look at a tree, completely without mental judgment, then I feel also the energy which lies beyond it - because I feel this energy in me." (Translated from German)

Interesting story how you received some books, so in some way you had the posibility to get some information about the divine personalities. Would you say one should view at the Radha-Krishna deities in a similar way described by Eckhard Tolle, in order to feel 'here and now' the energy which lies beyond Them?
kamalamala1
Posts: 331
Joined: Tue Dec 09, 2008 5:46 pm

Re: Speaking of sects

Post by kamalamala1 »

Dear Harshiji
Sorry that i didnt replay imediatly.
Believe or not i wrote a lot of big answers on all your questions .
But they are full of mistakes so i am waiting the time when i will be more relaxed to improve all.
But in a short i can say .
Dont warry evrything here is much better then you can imagine.
The most important point is that this temple guided by Hari and this is realy very very important i hope you understand why.
And this temple actualy made by Hari in that sence it is his temple.
Our also .we are trying our best .And i think we are doing well.
Our Dieties is super they are the best Dieties in all Russia.
And dont warry we are taking care nicely.
The most important thing that here is not the place of twisted forced spirituality no anymore spirtual e[ploatation wich are going on in ISCON :!:

And no anymore differentation between people us and them.
iN ALL OUR LIFE EXPESIALY IN SPIRITUALITY THE MOTIVATION IS THE MOST IMPORTANT POINT.
OTHER THINGS AS RITUALS AND RULS AND REGULATIONS ARE COMLITLY SECONDARY/.

And KRSNA said that in Bhagavad Gita very shortly IF YOU OFFER ME ANYTHING IN LOVE I WILL ACCEPT
Other things if they are wrongly motivated or forced in some direct or udirect ways can not be offerd in love.
Love cannot be forced.
kamalamala1
Posts: 331
Joined: Tue Dec 09, 2008 5:46 pm

Re: Speaking of sects

Post by kamalamala1 »

On your other points
i also want to add that there are no grown people anywere everybody is child, evrybody/
Only the toyes are different.
As soon we are begining realy take responsibility for ourselfs for others we are becoming grown but even then we are playing in someway sometime.itis our nature.

And most peoples are realy cheated by others in diffrent filds in politic in religions.

The whole cheating is based on the point that you should trust you should believe that you are foolish you
should understand that you are sinful and e.t.c
You dont know they know.

And in reality they also dont realy know and if they are wrongly motivated economicaly politicaly and even if they want very much to become Great Sage or Saint then you are cheated.
You waisted your time your life/
You can see evrything in there action LORD said in Bhagavat Gita you can recognise people how they act how they
speak e.t.c
the ones who are accepting the obeinseses and greeting s of others and think that it should be like that so isnt it abvious that they are pure cheaters.
If things done not out of love personaly to you then it is cheating expesialy in spirituality.
And when one realy doesnt know anything in experiance but presenting himself as selfrealised soul then how can he do anything out of love to you.
Just think about that
kamalamala1
Posts: 331
Joined: Tue Dec 09, 2008 5:46 pm

Re: Speaking of sects

Post by kamalamala1 »

you know there are some gurus and masters who say that if you desagree with there opinion it is pure apardha -offence.
Can you imagine wath is that .
You have no right to desagree and it is under the name of God.If you desagree you will go to hell can you imagine wath is that .
Even God never say like that he doesnt think if you desagree with his opinion that it is offence ,he is saying no problem,see Bhagavat Gita Lord said Arjuna i said evrything do as you want.
User avatar
harsi
Posts: 2284
Joined: Sun Jun 05, 2005 1:40 am
Location: Nuremberg, Germany
Contact:

Re: Speaking of sects

Post by harsi »

ImageThe Theology of Deity WorshipAbout the AutorVideo


Krishna Kshetra Das (Kenneth R. Valpey) wrote recently a book where he describes deity worship as practiced over the centuries. He studied Indian Studies or Indology at Oxford University, St. Cross College, (1999 - 2004). From that university he received a Ph.D. degree for his dissertation on Caitanya Vaishnava image worship. In the summer of 2006, while I was visiting the Nrsimhadeva temple in Jandelsbrunn, he was also there and he showed me during our discussion his D.Phil dissertation. We know each other from the time I was living there and we had always a good and friendly relation. He told me ones, I think it was around the year 1988 or so, by that time he was head pujari for the temple of Prahlad Nrsimhadeva, how unhappy he was that he was recommendet to the GBC in Mayapur to become an initiating guru. He wrote also a letter to the local GBC, explaining why he didn't feel enough qualified for such a position. He received as an answer that he would show by this just his humility. On the Website of the Oxford Centre for Hindu Studies one can read about him "Having taught courses in Indian and Asian religions for the year 2006 at the University of Florida, Gainesville, and having taught for the academic year 2007-08 at the Chinese University of Hong Kong in the Department of Cultural and Religious Studies, he presently continues to teach at CUHK each Autumn semester as a Visiting Scholar."


ImageDeityworship.org / 2 / 3


Thanks Kamalamalaji for your informations, its good that you are doing nicely care of your Radha-Krishna deities in Russia.
I wish you all a pleasant and happy Gaura Purnima!

On the Internet I found this article written by Krishna Kshetra Das in October 9, 2004 related to Deity worship:
"Some remarks on the procedure for performing arati.

The following remarks are an expression of my own thoughts regarding what seems to be a persistant source of disagreement and confusion in our Society regarding procedures for offering arati in our temples. My hope is that these remarks may serve to clarify, leading if not to a final definitive conclusion, at least to better understanding of the issue. What follows is not to be taken as any sort of final ‘position’ on my part, but is merely my effort to share my own understanding. It may well be mistaken, and I am open to correction by others. I may be repeating what others have said in recent discussions, not all of which I have been able to follow due to time constraints. My apologies if I sound out of touch with the immediate discussion.
  • Some general points:
1. Whenever we perceive what we think is a contradiction between different statements in shastra, or between what two different acharyas within our tradition say, or between what an acharya and some statement of shastra say, a good hermeneutical (=interpretive) principle is to try to understand how both positions are true, appropriate, fitting, or felicitous. The question becomes not ‘which is right and which is wrong?’ but ‘How – in what ways – are both right?’ This may involve various ‘strategies’, including distinguishing between principles and details, and seeing how one statement may apply in certain circumstances, another statement in other circumstances. It may involve contextualizing of statements (generally to identify what the overall argument or emphasis is, within which a particular statement is embedded. Note that to contextualize is not necessary to relativize in a negative sense).

2. Like so many aspects of Krishna consciousness, the various devotional activities we group under the heading ‘archanam’ are both sublimely simple and sublimely profound (or profoundly simply and simply profound! patram puspam phalam toyam...); there are some aspects of archanam which can be very complex in detail, and there are aspects which can involve considerable subtleties of understanding. The more I study, reflect on, and perform deity worship, the less I feel I have comprehended the depth of it, even as my appreciation of it grows.

3. Archanam is the realm of both formalized worship and hence respectful distance, and of intimacy, or potential intimacy, with the Lord by the rendering of direct services to Him in His archavatara. Because formality is emphasized in temple worship, there is emphasis on indirectness: One worships not directly, but through the spiritual master, who is (from our perspective) directly associated with the Lord (from his perspective, he is similarly connected through his spiritual master, etc.). But both principles – directness and indirectness, intimacy and formality – are at play. The pujari who dresses Krishna is directly dressing Krishna and this direct service is only possible by the blessings of the guru.
  • Performance of Arati
1. I find it intriguing that while arati is the central, most frequently performed, public event in archanam within our Vaishnava (and so many other Indian temple) traditions, there is extremely little verbalization within the tradition about its significance. By way of contrast, the Christian sacrament of the Eucharist, certainly the most central of Christian rituals, is discussed in literally hundreds of volumes, written over several centuries. We may find that it behooves us, or Vaishnava theologians amongst us, to articulate significance of this rite in view of our Society’s presence in the West, with western expectations of ‘explanations’ for all one does in spiritual practices. And this in turn might help us appreciate and be more reflective about what we are doing when performing or viewing an arati.

2. There are considerable variations, at least in detail, how arati is performed in different temples identifying themselves with the Gaudiya Vaisnava tradition. Some of these temples (especially in Vraja) may be sharing aspects of tradition with other sampradayas, and may indeed have adopted practices from other sampradayas. This is not to say they are now ‘deviated’. Rather, it may reflect a positive interaction and association, a persistent principle in the survival and enrichment of any tradition.

3. Shastric references to the performance of arati are, so far I have seen, usually brief, usually a simple injunctive phrase like ‘and now perform nirajana [i.e. waving of lights]’. Such injunction is invariably with reference to one single deity being worshipped at the time. There is no account of a multi-deity ‘altar’ (except with reference to the one deity’s parivaras (associates), who may be placed (generally by ritual/meditation, not physically) around the one deity. There is no account of guru-parampara pictures, or mention of the worship of Gauranga. Shastra (and I’m refering essentially to Haribhaktivilasa, the definitive compendium of archanam topics from which, largely but not entirely, later Gaudiya worship procedures are derived) does however emphasize that before worshipping Krishna (or one of His several forms) one must worship the guru. One worships guru by first sitting down and offering 5, 10, 12, or 16 upacaras, items of worship, including bathing dressing, offering bhoga. Then, with the guru’s blessings, one proceeds to offer different upacaras (usually at least 16) to the main deity one is worshipping (not the same incense, same lamp, same bhoga, etc., which one just offered to the guru; however, and I will get back to this, one may well use the same source of water for bathing guru and Krishna).

4. Srila Prabhupada, by emphasizing within the performance of arati that one offers arati items first to guru, then Gauranga, then Krishna, could be seen as both a way of emphasizing the indirect aspect of worship/dependence on the guru to approach the Lord and a way of combining, or perhaps better, including within the arati procedure the principle of worshipping guru first, then Krishna, which applies to the worship procedure that takes place behind closed curtain. Arati is generally a concluding activity to a process of worship (which is, on the whole, about respect and hospitality). Such condensation of ritual procedures, and its opposite, expansion of procedures (especially in festivals) is bread and butter of Vedic/Agamic/Puranic ritual.

5. As with all ritual, deity worship is full of ‘conventions’ (similar to theatrical conventions, e.g. a given action is understood to represent something else, or more of the same thing, like a loud stage-whisper representing actual whispering). So, for example, in the absence of many flowers we might offer one flower to Krishna (patram puspam phalam…) with the devotional thought that we are offering a large plate full of fragrant flowers. Another sort of ‘convention’ comes into play when there are several deities and gurus being worshipped more or less simultaneously at the same place (the same altar), whereby one may view or consider, for example, the offering of the same flower that one just offered to guru as a different flower as one offers to Gauranga, and again as a different flower when offering to Krishna. (One might understand this as taking from the same source of incense, water, flowers, etc.)

6. An alternative employment of convention as a way perhaps to emphasize that one is not offering the guru’s prasada to Krishna, involves making some gesture of offering respect and receiving blessings from the guru prior to offering each item to the main deity and ‘working one’s way down’ (the gesture might involve ‘offering’ with circles, or by holding up to and glancing at the guru, or a mental prayer, or a combination of these).

7. This second alternative, as far as Gaudiya tradition goes, seems appropriate, even though Srila Prabhupada did not introduce it (in his society). He did give instruction to certain devotees (Narottamananda Prabhu, Jayatirtha Prabhu, to my knowledge) that details of worship could be learned from local temples of Vrindavan/Mathura, of which he specified Radharamana and Keshava-ji Gaudiya Math.

8. When Srila Prabhupada indicated that archanam details could be learned from other temples he also indicated that he himself was not particularly informed of the details of archanam because he had never lived in a temple/math. I hasten to add that I, for one, don’t for a moment believe that I will come to understand even a small fraction of what Srila Prabhupada understands about deity worship in a million years. Srila Prabhupada was seeing Krishna directly when he was seeing the deity. What am I seeing? I mention this only to indicate that Prabhupada himself did not necessarily consider all of his instructions – so far details are concerned – as absolute and final.

9. But from points 6 through 8 I do not therefore conclude or urge that all temples should adopt the arati procedure indicated in #6 above. There is another principle to be considered in archanam, and that is tradition. Some practices – many practices – are performed a certain way because that’s how they have been done, ‘rightly’ or ‘wrongly’. The traditional way is right because Krishna is accepting it and has been accepting it (and, equally importantly, because the founder-acharya of the institution who installed a particular deity has specified it that way). The story that Ramanujacharya, despite his best intentions to ‘correct’ the worship procedures in the Jagannatha temple in Puri, was literally booted out by Jagannath after Jagannath’s pujaris prayed to Him not to let Ramanuja change anything, is a nice illustration of this point.

10. I personally am not convinced that all temples should be expected to settle for one or the other procedure for performing arati. I would suggest that this could be settled on the level of GBC secretaries, that is, that within a given GBC zone it might be decided to keep to the ‘early’ procedure or to the other. But neither am I utterly against uniformity in this matter if devotees feel it is crucial for the unity of our Society. That should perhaps be discussed on the GBC level. Again, these remarks are merely that – remarks aimed to hopefully clarify issues, at least to invite discussion and further clarification and correction."(more)
Post Reply