varnashrama

[kamalamala1]

It is difficult to say exactly.
From Vedic tradition KIngs ruling sosiety but again the bramanas consil was overseeing sometime wath kings doing
but this wasnt a sistem just in some bad cases they came out from there ashramas and using there braminical power
made proper desision.(also this brahmanas usualy was maharishis not just ordinari brahamnas)
So we can say that kings was ruling the sosiety.
But from that movie intelectual class and renunciates (brahmanas) was rulers/
That is why the question arised wath is the best.

[Hari]

Without referring to history or some tradition, government works best when there are selfless leaders who desire to do what is best for the greatest number of people in the society. Such a leader has to be a good manager who can determine where to find the best advice and information and use it properly.

When you strip away all the names and categories from scripture, things boil down to common sense methodologies universally recognized as maximizing social development and maintenance.

[kamalamala1]

You mean leaders like Pandavas they was really super selfless?
But most of the kings very rare was realy selfless.
And leaders nowdayes also.
Althought some maybe trying there best.

[Hari]

No leader is super selfless. Selfless is complete in itself!

There will always be conflict and unrest in the world. This is the nature of life.

Here is food for thought: Yudhisthira was a great leader, far beyond anyone we have ever known, surrounded by the greatest personalities we could ever imagine. Look how he was exiled and how millions of people had to die to restore him to power.

If you seek utopia, expect to be disappointed...

[kamalamala1]

Yes all the heroes of that time was so great one even cannot imagine.
Mahbharat is the greatest epos of all times.
I just read one episod when Dritarashtra was lamenting after the war because of his sons death,with him was lamenting Yudhisthira and his brothers there was alwayes nereby Dritarashta and was serving him as a real king ,wath great hearth they had wath a kindness, i bow down with my mind and hearth before them really.

Yes varnashrama should not be some utopia it should be something practical.

Just yesterday was interesting knews katolik Pop was invited to the euro parlament and wath he said was really interesting.
He said that the bigest problem of Eourope is not economi not political situation with Ukrain but lonliness of european citysens.
And he is right since because ashrama institution is comlitly destroyed in west ,famillyes lost there role
all people live appart and dont care much,varnashrama is the way to make real comunity real families where people will not feel lonliness. .
In India people dont have that problem since in india and Asia the idea of ashrama is in value and people respect ashrama institutions.
That is why althought people in India generaly more poor then Eouropians but they are happy .
Since happynes coming not from mashins and tecnology but from people and people is the best value in the warld.
When i was in Eourope i find no people in the streets it was so quite like in cementary i thought that it is just my feeling but when Pop told about lonliness problem i find out that it is it.
And how make it practical nowdayes is a big question.

[kamalamala1]

I also want to add that from the example of Yudhisthir and Vidura we can understand wath a great personality Yamaraj is,
we can understand real divine qualityes of Gods.
Since Yudhisthir and Vidura were incarnation of Yamaraj.

[harsi]

The real benefit of varna is a social psychological one, where individuals are given the best opportunity to fulfill their potential. This creates strong, stable and healthy people who can support a complex society.

That is definitely so. I made the same experience. You said also ones something which elucidates very good how a good manager of people would have to act in order to get things done: "You have to get the right people in the right places. That is the whole point of Varnashrama." From a video on Youtube.

[kamalamala1]

About varnas it is more or less something is clear.
But there are a huge questions about ashramas.

I am trying to analyze and figure out how should be proper ashrams and the rules in it .

In this regard arising several questions.

What is the best for spiritual development.

For example in the west tradition there are some rules and customs for families which is completely different from the rules and customs of the western traditions

Let say in the east householder usually live with there parents in the same house and generally it is tradition and they feel comfortable with them and take care for them and it is a rule there that all decisions for ones own life should be made by elder members of family .

More then that there are a rule younger brothers or sisters should respect and obey to eldest one,and it was like that not only in Mahabharat time.In the west it is not at all so and in many cases completely opposite, some parents doing all to get there child’s to live separate from them and be completely independent and they doing it for there point of view and from there love to them.And wath to speak about eldest brothers in the west nobody so much considering the age.

I remember one story in this regard there was one worker from Tajikistan here .

And as soon he was getting his salary he Immediately sending it to his father and then father was

distributing it amongst family members to ones who need it more.

He was forcibly married and he had to obey all his 8 eldest brothers and it was quite uncomfortable situation ,from the other side it was beautiful tradition. There idea of family is more waste then in west.

So since if one is bound or controled by many others and cannot display his real desires and identity in eastern tradition, especially woman’s, it look that this kind of traditions hindering spiritual growth of a person but from other side they are more save to not make karmic mistakes and be more save in the life and be pure.

But the western tradition allows one to be himself totally free and get the experiences for independent actions and even mistakes ,but there also one can become heartless and careless and insane and lose his purity.

Especially teenagers can fall under the influence of bad company and end up in total loneliness and frustration which is so usual in west.

So considering all this what do you think is the best for spiritual evolution to live like in east tradition or like in the west tradition?


P.S
Harijee you know while writing this I suddenly understood why it was so important to push in vedic literature, in vedic time , the idea of renunciation and detachment, and how useless to push this ideas nowadays in the west, since in the west ,people became insanely detached they detached so much that it is becoming dangerous for future of society and they need to recover, to become at least in some level attached ,so that family’s don’t fall apart and children’s don’t suffer.

[Hari]

You know, you should figure this out for yourself and answer your own questions. The reason I am saying this is because I have no interest in this subject and it is hard for me to be placed in the role of explaining it. Even the term "householder," is fairly absurd in the modern context. All the sannyasis I know in a certain movement have what can easily be called a household, even down to those who care for them. Functionally, to survive in modern society you have to have a place to live that is a home. I am therefore not interested in the term. I am not really interested in any term regarding "ashram" since I fail to see the relevance.

I cannot comment on whether it is best to live in the east or west. As far as I can see, one lives where one lives and according to their family and community culture one is stuck with the values and ideals. This changes over time and every individual will rebel in their own way. Spiritual evolution can take place in either environment and I do not see one as better than the other.

There is no such thing as vedic, so I am not sure what you mean. If you mean previously in India, then maybe detachment was valuable to counterbalance extreme attachment, but I am not sure if one can state with confidence that this worked beneficially within the last few centuries or that it is working now, so why bother with this discussion?

None of these points matter, in my humble opinion. Just as the value of varna is mainly psycho-social to help define the relationships between different qualities of work, the value of "ashram" is today mainly only important in as much as it assists families to be stable and children to be protected and given the best possible circumstances to evolve and grow.

Am I radical? Nah! This is normal stuff. What is radical is attempting to insert historical Indian cultural ideals into those who are not naturally inclined to them. Look at the wonderful results of the movement in the middle east where radical religion is being forced upon everyone regardless if they want it or not. And I am being sarcastic.

This topic has run its course. I do not see much value in continuing it. Sorry if this is rude, but you would find it more advantageous to research it yourself and discuss with others who are interested in it.

[kamalamala1]

Thank you for your answer
it is so good that you wrote it.

Since previously you wrote a book about Varnashram and it was illusion that this issue including all so called vedic term s has value in this regard/
And also in your answers in the post in your forum Varnashrama Manifesto, was nt so clear does you supporting that
Ideas in your book or not .
So by your this answer it became clear to me that all this doesnt have any value nowadays and all this terms like brahmana and ksatriya/ ashrams and others is useless.
And actually you are right.

And also it once more it became obvious that all this categories made in Iscon like householder sanyasis, brahmachris and ....is just a theater and we was playing in that theater the best years of our life’s taking it so seriously that some even sacrifices there life’s. Very pity story.

[Hari]

I do not think that the major elements of this concept are useless! On the contrary, they are still important because these four major categories always exist in human society. These categories relate to the fundamental nature of the human being, so awareness of them is good at all times.

To recreate this concept in the modern world is impossible and I do not see why one should bother with discussing practical implementation. That does not mean the concepts have no value. Even though modern social structures look very different than older one's, people are similar. These ideals of the psychology and physical qualities of work are equally relevant now as they were previously.

I wrote that book because if one examines Prabhupada's lectures and talks, you will see that he spoke about these ideas more than 50% of the time, or at least he mentioned them in some form or other that often. I saw that practically no one was interested in these concepts and simply listened and let the words fly through their heads without considering them. People used these concepts for personal gain as the occasion fit, and discarded the various austerities and responsibilities associated with these occupational categories. I do not wish to discuss the failings of those who heard what he said but were not moved by these words because it is not interesting to me any longer. Many claim to be followers, yet they do not actually follow. They pick and choose according to what suits them. Hypocrisy aside, I am simply explaining that I felt a book needed to be written to attempt to present a viable solution to the total lack of a universal social structure within ISKCON and the world. The book failed to fulfill that need and therefore it also has little value at present.

All that has value is awareness of the qualities that naturally appear when people gather together and perform work. Understanding this helps us to optimize education, seek out the best people for the right positions, encourage leaders to feel responsible and generally for everyone to live a life that is ethical and compatible with others in their surroundings, as well as to live in a manner that is true to themselves. This is the main message of the system and this message will shine throughout all time whether we accept it or not. It is better to accept our qualities and work with them than to reject this valuable information due to the manner in which it was presented or how it has been perverted for self interest throughout the ages.

And that is certainly my humble opinion.