*** question from Dmitriy Osipov from Ukraine ***
(https://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=100001285576112)
Dear Hari!
When we left ISCKON as much as I remember you gave us an advise us to learn to become independent, which we have been working on since then. But now I'm struggling with this question of independence in the curcumstance of my family about to fall apart.
The question is what is independance, what is its meaning? Isn't it we always depdend on so many people and so many other living entities?
Sincerely yours,
Dmitriy Osipov
(Charanambhoja)
Becoming independent
Re: Becoming independent
No one can be completely independent of others. There are many forms of dependency, some are physical or practical and some are emotional or psychological. If someone is dependent on intoxication to get through the day, then it is better for them to become independent of this addiction. If for some reason someone is dependent on a bad relationship that is crushing them internally, it is better they address the issues that are placing them in this unfavorable situation and resolve them, or leave that relationship if they cannot.
Being dependent on someone else spiritually is not healthy. Being independent requires that we are strong as individuals and aware of who we are and why we do what we do. We must have our own vision of life and the direction we wish to take. We might take advice or assistance from others as needed, but that is only to strengthen our position. The stronger we are, the more we can stand on our own two feet. Being stable and well situated is required in spiritual life for only we can advance and only we can connection to the supreme or divine energy. Others can help us do this, but the actual relationship with the divine depends on us more than anyone else.
Therefore, being addicted to crutches to enable our advancement is not advisable and we must get free from these external structures that are holding us up. We have full capacity to stand on our own two feet. This form of spiritual independence is required and without it we cannot reach our full potential. Besides, when you are strong and stable, you can best relate to others, assist others, and be of service to them. Weak, dependent people are useless to themselves and others.
Being independent of your family is not advantageous or desired in most circumstances. Trying to make family relationships work may be trying and difficult, but it is your first responsibility. We cannot declare ourselves independent from our family for in truth we are connected to them biologically and emotionally and nurturing this basic social unit is extremely important.
When we engage in business, we are dependent on others. We work together with others to complete tasks and we are dependent on consumers or those who pay us to keep the finances flowing.
When we go to school, we are dependent on the ability of the teacher to help us learn. When we are in the hospital we depend on the doctors and the staff to cure our ills. We depend on the government to keep us safe and to facilitate our lives. We are interrelated to hundreds of people in thousands of ways all the time and without this interaction our lives would be so much less.
This is obvious. So recognize your dependency and do whatever you have to do to nurture your family relationship. Apologize, rectify, adjust, compromise, do whatever you must to make it work. If it becomes impossible, do what you have to.
Good luck!
Being dependent on someone else spiritually is not healthy. Being independent requires that we are strong as individuals and aware of who we are and why we do what we do. We must have our own vision of life and the direction we wish to take. We might take advice or assistance from others as needed, but that is only to strengthen our position. The stronger we are, the more we can stand on our own two feet. Being stable and well situated is required in spiritual life for only we can advance and only we can connection to the supreme or divine energy. Others can help us do this, but the actual relationship with the divine depends on us more than anyone else.
Therefore, being addicted to crutches to enable our advancement is not advisable and we must get free from these external structures that are holding us up. We have full capacity to stand on our own two feet. This form of spiritual independence is required and without it we cannot reach our full potential. Besides, when you are strong and stable, you can best relate to others, assist others, and be of service to them. Weak, dependent people are useless to themselves and others.
Being independent of your family is not advantageous or desired in most circumstances. Trying to make family relationships work may be trying and difficult, but it is your first responsibility. We cannot declare ourselves independent from our family for in truth we are connected to them biologically and emotionally and nurturing this basic social unit is extremely important.
When we engage in business, we are dependent on others. We work together with others to complete tasks and we are dependent on consumers or those who pay us to keep the finances flowing.
When we go to school, we are dependent on the ability of the teacher to help us learn. When we are in the hospital we depend on the doctors and the staff to cure our ills. We depend on the government to keep us safe and to facilitate our lives. We are interrelated to hundreds of people in thousands of ways all the time and without this interaction our lives would be so much less.
This is obvious. So recognize your dependency and do whatever you have to do to nurture your family relationship. Apologize, rectify, adjust, compromise, do whatever you must to make it work. If it becomes impossible, do what you have to.
Good luck!
Re: Becoming independent
The way I see it, and that is also my own experience, is that we value the spiritual advice by someone we like and trust. It is the sense of assurance that comes with trusting that the one from whom we take some advice in this regard can help us understand and bring us into a position in which we can experience by ourselves that what we want to experience, respectivelly become aware of, realize or recognize by ourselves. When that goal is reached the teacher or spiritual advisor becomes a dear friend whose competence and skills we count on and value due to our joint experience.Hari wrote:Being dependent on someone else spiritually is not healthy. Being independent requires that we are strong as individuals and aware of who we are and why we do what we do.
Now on the other hand there are people who say that 'transcendence' wouldn't be a "science, which is 'simple-minded' reachable." One would have to surender unto Krishna in order to reach that goal. "As soon we surrender unto Krishna, the scriptures are confirming: from that point on, we get 'automatically' the according knowledge, to reach the Highest Platform of life (= materially and 'spiritually')" Here the Bhagavadgita 'As It Is' 10.10 is been quoted: "To those who are constantly devoted to serving Me with love, I give the understanding by which they can come to Me..." Krishna wouldn't "accept 'direct approaches' since the field would be to elevated, - only close associates (= Guru) would be able to "connect with."
Others say: "Independence, division, the desire to stand alone is part of the socalled ego-structure (or the structure of the false ego if you prefer the vaishnava term of it)." "We also have to consider to different ways of being situated: 1. That of the formally initiated disciple. 2. That of the non-disciple.
(Ad. 1) The disciple is aquired to be submissive to his/her guru and all of the parampara (the chain of disciples coming down from God). That is the whole idea of being a disciple. One takes up a discipline as a dictate from a 'dictator' (in the good sense of the word ) - (Ad. 2) The non-disciple is advised to seek instructions and advise (siksha) from the bonafide guru. But he/she is not required to follow although it is still advisable to do so."
What would you answer to such arguments dear Hari?
Re: Becoming independent
The way I see it, independance is more of a way to lead a self-determined life with as much independence as possible, which for everyone may mean something else, according to how he or she wants to act and behave in a self determined and self responsible way. For example Prabhupada would not have been Prabhupada would he not have spoken and led his life in the way he did. That made him so unique. Now others may lead their life in their own self determined unique way which is original to them. My experience is that in spiritual life there is no one solution. system or approach which fits all since everyone of us is unique in his or her own right.
Re: Becoming independent
Perhaps it was not so clear from my answer that it was relevant, in my opinion, to everyone. I do not see the point in having to address the situation of "devotee and non-devotee" and the last comment you made seems to be a non-sequitor.
Re: Becoming independent
Okay Hari let me try to formulate it in another way. You write: "When we go to school, we are dependent on the ability of the teacher to help us learn." People you or I would call devotees - and by the way I still feel to be one since I still believe in Krishna as god and that for almost 30 years now, and the way I experienced some of your lectures, especially those you gave ones in St. Petersburg, you do the same - worship that teacher they call guru exactly for that reason. Would you say that such a thing is conducive for ones spiritual evolution and understanding? And when the point has been reached where all this worship, appreciation and "dependance" as you call it has been reversed so much that without it one would feel to not be able to stay on ones own feet so to speak and feel somehow unprotected spiritually and without a proper connection to the spiritual realm and truth? I like it and can well relate to what a spiritual teacher says in a video that once we "align to our true natures," or as some of us would say become aware of our true essence of being, or soul if you will, we can all step into the perfect future we desire.
Re: Becoming independent
Teachers who assist us to spiritually evolve are important, their message is important and the service they render us is often incalculable. Without spiritual teachers this world would be in far worse shape than it already is. Learning from these evolved individuals is a good thing, but if the teacher becomes the focus of your life and you are dependent on them more than you should be, this can become counter-productive. Although we depend on the wisdom and experience of others, when we complicate the relationship by worshiping them, we run the risk of distorting the teacher-student relationship and turning it into something unhealthy. Maintaining the capacity to change one's mind when it is right to do so is an essential part of spiritual development. Worshiping someone tends to restrict such change. Those who worship a guru within a tradition, accept a deeper and more dependent relationship with their teacher than those who are not in the tradition.
After we learn something, we need to practice it. A teacher can assist in this or a teacher can hold us back. It depends on how good the teacher is and how aware the student is. One could say we always remain students of sorts because we are always seeking answers to questions and researching how to solve our problems. Even a teacher remains a student in this way.
What makes us independent is that we decide the direction of life, have our own vision about what it should look like, and choose who to listen to and who to avoid. We make our choices and act according to our best interests. When one becomes dependent on another to such an extent that they lose confidence in their capacity to decide what is right and wrong without some "higher" direction, we become weak. Often this dependency is over-compensated by a fundamentalist attitude or fanatical behavior.
In conclusion, you accept what you want to accept. You do what you think is best for you. If you feel good doing what you are doing and it truly is helping you, why change? If you do not feel good and it is not helping you, then why stick to it? Independence maintains the capacity to choose what is best for yourself.
After we learn something, we need to practice it. A teacher can assist in this or a teacher can hold us back. It depends on how good the teacher is and how aware the student is. One could say we always remain students of sorts because we are always seeking answers to questions and researching how to solve our problems. Even a teacher remains a student in this way.
What makes us independent is that we decide the direction of life, have our own vision about what it should look like, and choose who to listen to and who to avoid. We make our choices and act according to our best interests. When one becomes dependent on another to such an extent that they lose confidence in their capacity to decide what is right and wrong without some "higher" direction, we become weak. Often this dependency is over-compensated by a fundamentalist attitude or fanatical behavior.
In conclusion, you accept what you want to accept. You do what you think is best for you. If you feel good doing what you are doing and it truly is helping you, why change? If you do not feel good and it is not helping you, then why stick to it? Independence maintains the capacity to choose what is best for yourself.
Re: Becoming independent
Continued from Charanambhoja:
Dear Hari, thank you for your thorough answer!
I have contemplated upon it and have some more questions:
If we are so dependant in the material realm and considering that any two persons understand everything each in their own way, then what at all we can experience as more or less real without being mistaken from the spiritual realm as it is more multiform and not so obvious? How not to get confused? How to understand who am I and what a heck am I doing here???
Thank you again!
Sincerely yours,
Charanambhoja
Dear Hari, thank you for your thorough answer!
I have contemplated upon it and have some more questions:
If we are so dependant in the material realm and considering that any two persons understand everything each in their own way, then what at all we can experience as more or less real without being mistaken from the spiritual realm as it is more multiform and not so obvious? How not to get confused? How to understand who am I and what a heck am I doing here???
Thank you again!
Sincerely yours,
Charanambhoja
Re: Becoming independent
I do not worry all that much about making mistakes. Radha and Krsna know that we are trying our best and as they are our greatest supporters they allow us to find our way.
Because everything is so deep and rich in the spiritual realm, I simply explore it to increase my understanding and experience. I do not fear the diversity, I embrace it.
I find that confusion usually causes me to research deeper, endeavor more, and tune to the spiritual energy for the solution. I also wait for a resolution, or at least a sign, an answer, or an indication of how I can proceed. Something always comes. I may not resolve every issue or situation, and I do not expect to. But what can be resolved usually is in due course. I have confidence in this.
Who I am is resolved by accepting myself and acting as I am without trying to be anything else. Please see my book "Living Energy" for a deeper discussion of this. Why I am here is not important to me because my being here is more important than why. I have already dealt with the why and have given a lecture on this. I am experiencing and becoming a better version of myself through all these experiences. I do not need to always consider the why or lament about not knowing why. There is little value in always banging my head against the wall in frustration. Acceptance of what is will usually resolve what is not.
Because everything is so deep and rich in the spiritual realm, I simply explore it to increase my understanding and experience. I do not fear the diversity, I embrace it.
I find that confusion usually causes me to research deeper, endeavor more, and tune to the spiritual energy for the solution. I also wait for a resolution, or at least a sign, an answer, or an indication of how I can proceed. Something always comes. I may not resolve every issue or situation, and I do not expect to. But what can be resolved usually is in due course. I have confidence in this.
Who I am is resolved by accepting myself and acting as I am without trying to be anything else. Please see my book "Living Energy" for a deeper discussion of this. Why I am here is not important to me because my being here is more important than why. I have already dealt with the why and have given a lecture on this. I am experiencing and becoming a better version of myself through all these experiences. I do not need to always consider the why or lament about not knowing why. There is little value in always banging my head against the wall in frustration. Acceptance of what is will usually resolve what is not.
Re: Becoming independent
Thank you very much! 