God as only enjoyer?

[kamalamala1]

Dear Hari
I have a question
In some movements there are an Idea that God is the only enjoyer and others are only servants but this idea looks as dictatorship in some way, and where is the loving relations in this case?Where is love there are no question who is enjoyer.
More then that God i think realy want to be in service then to be enjoyer since he is himself is all enjoyment and all in him anyway and we are his parths.The example is the role of Lord Krishna in Kurukshetra war.
Anyway it will be nice to hear wath do you think about this isue.

[kamalamala1]

Lord Krishna said in Bhagavat Gita that he is Mother and Father
But if we look wath doing Mother she is totally in service towards her childs.
Yes she enjoying this service but she is not the same as many religions image of ejoyer-boss slave holder father God
Afcourse if God want he can be the most Boss but why he should want it, he have no the childhood trawmas as many so called bosses in this warld,He is not contaminated with pride and he very well know who he is and his own capasityes.
But afcourse he can be in any image as he want and only he knows why .
I just want to make accent on this another for me more attractive God image.
Mother much more important then father.

[harsi]

Without wishing to anticipate the answer Hari will give on this topic, that's the way how I view this issue also: "God is what you say God is. Love is what you say love is. Truth is what you say truth is. Nothing has any meaning save the meaning you give it. Can you live in such a world, a world without Absolutes? In such a world You are the Determiner. In such a world You are the Decider. In such a world You are the Declarer.

In such a kingdom, you are the Creator. This is the Kingdom of Heaven. It is not a kingdom where everything has been decided for you, it is a kingdom where you get to decide about everything. Now that is truly “heaven.” It is not a kingdom where you pay homage to someone else. It is a kingdom where you treat yourself as royalty.

Can you stand to live in such a kingdom? Can you bear to treat yourself not as The Lowest of the Low, but as The Most High? Does it sound sacrilegious to even use such a phrase to describe You? Well, here is the Good News: you are included, not excluded, from the definition and description of the Most High."

In other words each one of us is fully responsible and the creator of his own life and the particular world in which he lives, as well as the way he chooses to understand the things related thereto. Every man is the architect of his own fortune as the proverb goes. We choose our destiny!

[aradhya]

Dear Harsi, I agree with your last sentence (that we choose our own destiny), but that's all I agree about your bombastic comment. It's certainly not sacrilegious, it simply doesn't correspond with my reality, I don't know about yours. And, seemingly (as Kamalamala alluded) even Krishna's subjective reality (I wouldn't call it objective or absolute one, your excessive usage of the word Absolute is very risky), doesn't give much importance to His own exclusiveness, namely, to depend on His own associates is His greatest enjoyment, He anyway can't not be The Absolute, so He/She needn't to remind Himself/Herself that ,,isvaro'ham bhogi,, which you suggest we should stick ourselves to. In other words, no matter how much I like your words (,,kathayantishca mam nityam, tushyanti ca ramantishca,,), they are just like science fiction, refreshing but not applicable.

[harsi]

Thanks for your response dear Aradhya. You are completely right in what you wrote, if that does also reflect your inner perception and spiritual awareness. If that is so than my comment above related to God and how I perceive that Divinity, as well as myself in relation to that being, that spiritual entity, is according to your own words "science fiction," or in other words something completely incomprehensible. Now only you can answer why this would be so for You. Please explain to me (to us as members of this forum) why do you consider that to be so incomprehensible for You. It is obviously that I (me, the soul if you will) consider and perceive that what I wrote and cited above to be an objective fact for Me, otherwise I would not have wrote it.

[kamalamala1]

Wath you wrote in your coment Harshi sounds for me as another in some way fantasi
Althought with your lust sentense i agree more or less but we can include also Divine will in it
I cannot believe that we can creat our own warld in the way you wrote since i do believe that there are some objective reality since it reality of the world of Gods
We cannot make it as we want since it there world and why they should exist in the way we want
after all there are Gods.They have there own reality and we can become parth of it but we cannot change it as we want

Do you think if some ateist believe and want to creat a warld without life after death without existence of soule then it can be like that for him? No never he will be surprised.
After all in this warld we only can have our point of vew and our reactions on it and that all
we have to accept wath is it as it is althought we doesnt like so many things, so why do you think that in other realm it is not like here at least in many ways,

[harsi]

What you wrote in your coment Harshi sounds for me in some way as another fantasy.

Thank you for your comment Kamalamala. It is interesting for me to know how you view my comment.

I will just add some more words to my phrases from above and hope this sentences become as clear and self evident for you as they are for me. I wrote and cited above: "God is (for Me) what you (what I) say God is. Love is (for Me) what you (what I) say love is. Truth is (means for me) what you (what I) say truth is. Nothing has any meaning (in My Perception, Awareness or Cognition) save the meaning you (I) give it. (You live in your own reality of being as I live in mine)

"Can you (can I as a fully self-responsible, sovereign citizen and resident of this phenomenal creation) live in such a world, a world without Absolutes? (As It Is phrases...)

In such a world You are (I am) the Determiner. In such a world You are (I would be) the Decider. In such a world You are ( I am) the Declarer. In such a kingdom, (environment of Mine) you are (I Am) the Creator (or Co-creator). This is the Kingdom of Heaven. (Its meant metaphorical) It is not a kingdom (a place) where everything has been decided for you, (you have to...) it is a kingdom where you (where I) get to decide about everything. (out of my own desire and free will, and out of love)

Now that is truly “heaven.” (or heavenly) It is not a kingdom (place) where you (I) pay homage (obeisances only) to someone else. (... depend on the mercy of someone else) It is a kingdom (a place) where you (I) treat yourself (myself) as royalty. (I am the souveran and self-responsible for me , my self-awareness and cognition in life. What I create, or do in - my - life, place and environment where I happen to live, I decide.)

Can you stand to live in such a kingdom (place)? (Or do you always need to have a good cry on somebody's shoulder.) Can you bear to treat yourself not as The Lowest of the Low, (I am so impure, nod good enough, fallen etc.) but as The Most High? (I am as pure and divine in my essence of being, my spiritual nature as the Supreme is.)

Does it sound sacrilegious to even use such a phrase to describe You (Me)? Well, here is the Good News: you are (I am) included, not excluded, from the definition and description of the Most High." (I am an integral part of that Supreme. He/She is one of Us as I am one of Them. In that unity lies our true strengh, for all of Us.)

Do you have any doubts about this, or why should it not be like that, Kamalamala? Of course I am not saying that I, or you, would know it all, rather what I say is that I, that you do know that what you are aware of, what is cognizable in this regard - for you, for me. We can (we do) always grow in our spiritual understanding. For us and our cognition of our spiritual being the sky is no limit.

[aradhya]

Harsi, since you added the evolutionary point that ,,we can (we do) always grow ...,, or the poetic one ,,the sky has no limit for us,,, you denied the possibility to perceive ourselves as ,,The Most High,, beings (the most implies the end of evolution, the grow is finished). But, also you (maybe unintentionally) dispelled the danger of perceiving ourselves ,,The Lowest of Low,, (even if we ever were so, the ,,grow,, doesn't allow us to stay anymore as such). So, maybe, by bringing about the point of balance between extremes, you anticipated Hari's possible conclusion about this issue, you certainly couldn't draw his favor by messing around with his concepts (like ,,One of Us,, etc.). Maybe he simply wants to see if we are able to deal with questions (that he certainly already addressed previously) without his help. Or we still aren't?!

[kamalamala1]

Harshi jee
Wath you are writing is not a knew thing it is actually in some way very important parth of vedic knowledge wich is presents very well
in Upanishds
And actually this aspect of Knowledge is so lacking in sects and many movements.
This is in vedic litarature called Brahmavadi or mayavadi it is not bad as it proclaimed in sects it is just a spiritual path.
Lord Shankaracharya was teaching it.
About me i dont want to be most and nor less also i feel very comfortable with one most or more corectly many realy Mosst and me around them
But it is not cheap thing.
You know it is so wanderfull to be even slave to one or more persons who is realy the most absolut ones(imean Gods) in all wayes and Who realy by the defenition since there are God doesnt need nor any service nor any servants nor slaves
Since they are God they only love you as you are there son or dother? wath ever we do it can be only fun for them

Even the buttle of Kurukshetra was only fun nothing else for God

By the way i want to make more point on your coment
It was many people who think that wathever they are doing it is perfect and they are most perfect and they are God
IN Russia there was one rascal his name is Stalin and another stupid donkey was in your country his name is Hitler
And also there was Napoleon Chingis Han and other fools who thought that they are the suprim
And even Lions or crocodiles in jungle can feel that they are most and realy sincerly they can feel it.. so wath

Actually no use to become aт ignorant slave or servant ecspesialy to so called gurus and param gurus as it is in sects
But with full understanding who is GOds to be there servant ecspesialy fully understanding that they doesnt at all need any servant
it is absolutly transendental mistik act.

[kamalamala1]

Harshi jee
Wath you are writing is not a knew thing it is actually in some way very important parth of vedic knowledge wich is presents very well
in Upanishds
And actually this aspect of Knowledge is so lacking in sects and many movements.
This is in vedic litarature called Brahmavadi or mayavadi it is not bad as it proclaimed in sects it is just a spiritual path.
Lord Shankaracharya was teaching it.
About me i dont want to be most and nor less also i feel very comfortable with one most or more corectly many realy Mosst and me around them
But it is not cheap thing.
You know it is so wanderfull to be even slave to one or more persons who is realy the most absolut ones(imean Gods) in all wayes and Who realy by the defenition since there are God doesnt need nor any service nor any servants nor slaves
Since they are God they only love you as you are there son or dother? wath ever we do it can be only fun for them

Even the buttle of Kurukshetra was only fun nothing else for God

By the way i want to make more point on your coment
It was many people who think that wathever they are doing it is perfect and they are most perfect and they are God
IN Russia there was one rascal his name is Stalin and another stupid donkey was in your country his name is Hitler
And also there was Napoleon Chingis Han and other fools who thought that they are the suprim
And even Lions or crocodiles in jungle can feel that they are most and realy sincerly they can feel it.. so wath

Actually no use to become aт ignorant slave or servant ecspesialy to so called gurus and param gurus as it is in sects
But with full understanding who is GOds to be there servant ecspesialy fully understanding that they doesnt at all need any servant
it is absolutly transendental mistik act.

[harsi]

Harsi ...you certainly couldn't draw his favor...

Now that is quite interesting, honored Aradhya. I should have to "draw" someones "favor"... Why should I have to do that? Ok, change of subject. In both comments, as well in yours as also in that of Kamalamala I miss authenticity. That what you personally are aware of in regard to the subject under discussion. Both of you try to take the conversation away from the real issue under discussion namely what you yourself are aware of, that what you have experienced so far in relation to God, the Supreme and in regard to that what constitudes (could constitude) your own (spiritual) identity. You give so much reference to this or that person from the past or from wherever, but how about you and what is your cognition, your realization, awareness in this regard?

[kamalamala1]

Harshijee
I am writing my own realisation s be sure nothing else.Only it is a little bit difficult for me to exspress myself nicely in english.

My examples of real spirituality is Narada muni( or Atri or Vyasadev) who well know who he is in a deepest degree and still trying to be in service of one who doesnt need any service- GOD
Actually service is a wrong ward
Actually where is love there is no need of anything else

[harsi]

Harshijee, I am writing my own realisations be sure nothing else.

What I came to know (my interpretation of the word realisation ) and experience myself also is that one cannot in fact come to know and experience Krishna as God, in the sense one might have always imagined oneself. You can (in your imagination) put him/them, Radha-Krishna if you will, in the position you may have developed (in your mind) as being that Supreme you may define as God, the Almighty (a term of Christian roots) but in my own experience I cannot (in my spiritual practice - in my life) perceive that supreme entity as that blue boy with that enchanting Radha on his side.

So all this is (could well be) also just another form our mind with its expectations would like to believe in, have faith as an enchanting form of God Supreme. A (another) religion if you will I could have/develop faith in. In my spiritual practice (my life actually since all that comes naturally for me) I am nevertheless able to comprehend, to come to know and experience that what constitudes (may constitude) my (our ?) true nature, my essence of being, me, the soul if you will. (such terms can anyway be used just as some signbords in regard to someone else until that same experience and cognition may set in in the other person).

In some way self awareness and God awareness go (should go) hand in hand if one has also the right tools at hand in ones daily practice (ones life). Just having some book knowledge from whereever is in this regard not really helpfull. I experienced over the years so many people who seem to be a walking dictionary (with references from books) but when you ask them but how about You, what did you came to know yourself, what are your perceptions, cognitions, in that what you always talk about, there comes no answer at all... Just more indications what is (may be) written here and there, or what this person from the past or present happened to write or say ones. But the question is are all this other persons so much more better, or is it just a means of handing over responsibility which you should hold in your hands to someone else? And even if they were it, that what they might have talked about constitudes their own insight, cognition, realisations - not truely yours. Only if we take up responsibility for everything that happens in our lives will we start growing.

[kamalamala1]

About walking dictunary you said so nicely
The point that many people really doesnt searching or looking for God or Gods and many of them somehow ending in some religion ecspesially in Hare Krsna Movement
So they getting information wich is not actually so important for them for there soul in that stage of life.
That is why one should nomally pass dharma artha kama then Moksha then he can really appresiate Krisnas beutifull image i mean in spiritual way
It is good that you after so many years now trying to be sincerely towards yourself and questioning everything.
I appreciate that but different people have different ways of development.
Books if there are not pushed over in aggressive way as Cristians and well known to all us movements doing can help in many ways but only those
who really deeply need the spiritual knowledge of others ,especially such a persons like real Munis and Rsis.

More then that you are not considering the past lifes experiences wich is different between different people.
Many people came to Hare Krsna movement only because like Prasad or some young ladyes or something else
not many came because they was try ing to find trough or GOD.
It is not at all surprising that you wrote about Lord Krishna since he himself said in Bhagavat Gita that nobody knows him not even
Gods
More then that he said one of the thousand searching the trough and one from the millions becoming his devotee

what you are writing just confiming this

Krishna is not a blue boy he is the most secret person in creation wath to speak about Radha and really nobody knows them
some only know that they exist and that all and it is actually inaf to go on.

[kamalamala1]

About walking dictunary you said so nicely
The point that many people really doesnt searching or looking for God or Gods and many of them somehow ending in some religion ecspesially in Hare Krsna Movement
So they getting information wich is not actually so important for them for there soul in that stage of life.
That is why one should nomally pass dharma artha kama then Moksha then he can really appresiate Krisnas beutifull image i mean in spiritual way
It is good that you after so many years now trying to be sincerely towards yourself and questioning everything.
I appreciate that but different people have different ways of development.
Books if there are not pushed over in aggressive way as Cristians and well known to all us movements doing can help in many ways but only those
who really deeply need the spiritual knowledge of others ,especially such a persons like real Munis and Rsis.

More then that you are not considering the past lifes experiences wich is different between different people.
Many people came to Hare Krsna movement only because like Prasad or some young ladyes or something else
not many came because they was try ing to find trough or GOD.
It is not at all surprising that you wrote about Lord Krishna since he himself said in Bhagavat Gita that nobody knows him not even
Gods
More then that he said one of the thousand searching the trough and one from the millions becoming his devotee

what you are writing just confiming this

Krishna is not a blue boy he is the most secret person in creation wath to speak about Radha and really nobody knows them
some only know that they exist and that all and it is actually inaf to go on.