Who are you?

[Kula-pavana]

I personally in this forum because I want to listen some spiritual discussions, realizations of others and mostly your opinion about
spiritual topics. I think most of us here for all this. But some inspired that
many people reading them here, getting harsh and harsh toward
you just to express themselves.

sometimes spiritual discussions carry both pain and good instructions. maybe the more controversial topics and discussions can be moved to a separate forum on this site, but such controversies are unavoidable given the circumstances - especially in the beginning. Anyway, pain is not always bad.

[Hari]

OK, let's look at the problem in this way.

Auttareya represents, I assume, quite a few people who feel that I did something "wrong" or "harmful" to them, as well as others who feel I do harm to myself or others now. He is expressing this. I know this is not interesting to most who have gone on this interesting journey with me over the last 7 years or so, but this is only one thread in the forum. If someone is interested in this particular thread they will read it. Those not interested will drop the thread and either create a new one or skip the whole thing. Therefore I am not worried about moderation yet until this takes over more threads when we will do something about it.

[Hari]

There are some who feel I owe them an explanation or that I have to jump through their hoops to prove something to them. I understand their motives so I jump through some of them hoping there will be some other response than their bitterness. After all, when we feel hurt we wish to express it and get some relief. There are usually two classes of persons who express such feelings, 1) those who express their feelings, get a feedback, and move forward with the desire to find a healthier way to connect with the person or issue that bothers them, and 2) those who just wish to find fault and give back pain to the one that caused them trouble with more or less vengence or when it is milder, chastisement. I suppose it is up to each of us to determine which category our participants here fit within.

That I am afraid to say something is silly. To refrain from saying things that can create more trouble takes courage. I left ISKCON not out of fear but out of my lack of it. I probably stayed in ISKCON out of fear for there were hundreds of reasons to fear according to the philosophy. I act now not out of fear but free from fear.

I do not proclaim love to Auttareya or anyone. I do not see any purpose in trying to express love to someone who obviously has no capacity to relate to it. I presently am enjoying this opportunity to say some things which need to be expressed by me. It will not work to goad me into replies where I have to prove my love for you or prove that I am not afraid of your neurosis. Sorry. I have nothing to prove, neither would you accept my presentations of proof and neither would it mean anything anyway. How does one prove they love another in writing anyway? Would you like a romance novel?

Here is a point that I feel needs to be expressed and maybe it will help. I left ISKCON and the artificiality and rigidness of its structure which I feel directly created and maintained the serious problems of child abuse and the disfunction of the youth, sexual frustration in all its manifestations, the severe death wish of most of its members (that manifests in self-created diseases as an exit policy), the fear and frustration of women, the disregard for families which are the foundation of any society, the wasteful and draining centralized management, the victorian values that have no relation to the real world that we all do live in even though we try to forget it, the intense competition for power, position, and the exploitation of others for economic gain.

Sure you can say that I participated in this when I was in ISKCON and I cannot disagree (but give me credit for trying my best to make it better from within.) When I saw that there was NO way to change things from within due to the inability of most to analyze in a detached manner what was really wrong and do whatever was required to fix it (as there was no way to do it gradually for there would be greater damage to all us delicate souls during the 20 years it would take to replace a generation of authorities) I simply said, "I will not participate in this anymore. I can no longer pretend that it is a good society. I must quit as this is the most relevant manifestation of my realizations." So in the mood of better late than never, I quit the structure and all it represents. The best astrologer in the world said to me, "It is not a wonder that you left ISKCON, it is a wonder that you stayed in it so long." He was correct.

My leaving naturally included all the positions and manifestations created within the structure such as being a guru in the negative sense of the term. Guru as teacher, guide and friend are fine with me, but then let us use these words as they better describe the truth. The word guru has so many connotations ascribed to it that it is totally impossible to transform the position to something more reasonable (as Kulapana pointed out when he said his definition of the term was more reasonable than most others').

This did not mean in any way that I rejected, did not like, lamented over, or felt harmed by those who were officially my "disciples" in the ISKCON sense of the term. I liked most of my disciples, although some were very troublesome, and I really loved many. My real problem when leaving ISKCON was the loss of these relationships as I valued them greatly but I valued more the sanity of creating something reasonable in my own life. When I left I had no intention of starting something new or taking a position over anyone and I do not now. I just wish to give everyone a chance to manifest their spirituality in another way that is better than the last way.

In short: I left the position and externals, but not the relationships and the internals.

I did not 'leave' Their Lordships or the essence of Lord Caitanya's loving gifts to me, for that is impossible. I do not see leaving ISKCON and these essential parts of my spirituality as connected, or rather, leaving ISKCON did not damage the best part of me, it enhanced it.

Since that time it has been the choice of those who were connected to me to either remain connected, try to re-establish a connection, try to create a connection if they felt it was not there before, or reject all connections for whatver reason. Some feel the best way to deal with me is to neglect me totally as this is really the best way to express your disdain for another (and certainly it is very effective, take my word for it).

Alas, I find it hard to forget them. This is my personal pain.

[Auttareya]

I do not proclaim love to Auttareya or anyone. I do not see any purpose in trying to express love to someone who obviously has no capacity to relate to it. I presently am enjoying this opportunity to say some things which need to be expressed by me. It will not work to goad me into replies where I have to prove my love for you or prove that I am not afraid of your neurosis. Sorry. I have nothing to prove, neither would you accept my presentations of proof and neither would it mean anything anyway. How does one prove they love another in writing anyway? Would you like a romance novel?

Thank you for this words. Now I am feel little better. I deeply appreciate your sincerity.

In short: I left the position and externals, but not the relationships and the internals.

Thanks.

Since that time it has been the choice of those who were connected to me to either remain connected, try to re-establish a connection, try to create a connection if they felt it was not there before, or reject all connections for whatver reason. Some feel the best way to deal with me is to neglect me totally as this is really the best way to express your disdain for another (and certainly it is very effective, take my word for it).

In that time I was preaching in Phnom Penh, the Kingdom of Cambodia. Later, when I came back to Poland, I heard only bad news from COM, from your god brothers, from every where. I met only few your disciples are dedicated to you in any condition, but same stupefied as me.
The atmosphere in that time was so devastating and I could not face it, so I back to SE Asia to preach. But in that time, I was week because I was awared that I lost something valuable. I lost the source of my power and inspiration. After next few years my enthusiasm was gradually reduced, and I came into deep depression. I came back to Poland, and after some period of time, I came back to my family home, I am writing from.
This is my story.

[Hari]

Dear Auttareyaji

I am very, very sorry to hear about your depression. I can relate to it. It must have been terrible for you to have gone through this, especially while in Asia. As it was in ISKCON's interest to present the darkest picture possible, they did so. Their blocking all communication was part of their plan. But what happened, happened and we cannot change that. I do not blame them nor do I condemn them, but I avoid them and also such forms of judgment as they do not relate to me but rather to some myth that is nurtured out of desperation. I have no war neither objection to ISKCON being what it is and if you or anyone feel yourself better there then please don't worry about me. I do not wish to convince anyone of anything they are not desiring to attain. I wish to be of service.

You might find this interesting. Let us, for a moment, accept the principle that the guru says he or she will lead the one who accepts his teachings to God and the one who accepts the teachings from the guru says that he or she shall stick to it. Does the guru have to remain in the same situation or can the guru change according to what the guru thinks is best for himself and others? When the guru does that, does the follower have to follow or is it an immediate presumption that any change, any "deviation!" should be punished by neglect?

One may say that the guru cannot change to do things that are best for himself as he is linked to the others and has to remain exactly in this pre-defined position for the sake of the others as it is a contract. But let us say, just for the sake of argument, that the essence, or the substance of the pre-defined contract is that the follower (such a bad term but for this argument let us accept it temporarily and discard it in the future) should be progressing, evolving, and getting closer to the goal of a real connection with the Supreme and that the guru's job is to make this happen as best he or she can.

Now if the guru (again a bad term but bear with me) sees, through the many years of his or her involvement with others, that they are not actually progressing in the way that is ultimately good for them and are mainly concerned with external things and very much entangled in their minds (which are filled with guilt, self-condemnation, self-hatred, fear, anxiety, and doubt about their capacity to do what they are supposed to do) and having a nagging pain in the neck from unfulfilled desires, he or she might feel discouraged on a very deep level. Perhaps that discouragement gradually becomes very powerful. He or she might start looking for answers where answers were not formerly found. After all, everyone is sincere and trying their best. To tell them to simply follow the rules is easy but it does not work since few wanted to do that as they did not find them fitting within their lives. Neither did it lead them to some solution for their problems, and some of those problems were so tricky that they had a hard time defining them even to themselves. Telling them that they were at fault and fallen and they simply had to do follow or try harder, or the tactic of creating newer and newer diversions for them to forget their minds and work harder, might start to sound false even to the guru. After all, the point is that all should experience the Supreme. What to do?

Let's say the guru is not a person who is comfortable with following the crowd and feels it is wrong to not explore all the possibilities for the benefit of those who 'follow.' Let's say the guru him or herself feels similarly stuck (in his or her unique manner) and wishes to really experience that which he or she knows in his or her heart to be true but feels there is no way out of the situation. Let's say that guru throws him or herself at the feet of Their Lordships and asks for help. Let's say They do help. Let's say Their help is unexpected and in a form and with a power that went way beyond the capacity of the guru to control and avoid. Let's say the guru understands that Their Lordships are way more powerful than him or her and he or she just surrenders to it and goes with Their flow.

Let's say that the first part of this transformation is rocky and filled with incredible realizations and highs beyond the guru's imagination. Let's combine this with a deep realization of what was wrong in the previous arrangement and a deep desire to do what is right for ALL persons within the organization, follower or not. Let's say that during this rocky period of extreme highs and extreme conflict of interests with everything that was accepted before and the people who still accept it, things are said or done which are not characteristic of the guru and which shocked others. Let's say that this was unfortunate and not really the way the guru is, but let's say it was a wild and elastic time that just had to be that way to break all boundaries, barriers and existing conceptions.

And so it was. I am not proud of anything that happened and do lament many things. I cannot change the past, but I can try to assist in the present according to my capacity.

But let's examine my motives. I wanted to get free from the bondage that was ISKCON and all it entailed in all its structure and expectations. I wanted to experience my freedom and my direct connection with Their Lordships in a way that was compatible and natural for me as a person, not as a position, without having to worry about how everyone else would see or interpret every single move or word I created. If I could reach that level that fulfilled me at my deepest core, I would then have traversed that path which would make me qualified in reality to share it with others.

So perhaps, just perhaps, all this was a way to allow me to get to that point where I could actually help you or others, or anyone who wanted to get to a real experienced connection with Their Lordships and all the wonderful divine beings that are ready to relate with us for our sake and for the sake of the world. I believe this. I cannot convince anyone of this with my words, but I try to do so by sharing the means, the path, the experiences that I have had with others but this time without requiring anything of anyone. No demands, no expectations, no rules, no structure, no restrictions, no bondage, no guilt, no fear, no judgment, no condemnation, no sectarianism, no sects, no politics, no fighting with others to be something or get somewhere and no economic entanglement. Moreover, supporting the individual, the family, the children, their society, their economy, their education, their welfare, their health, their recreation, their careers, their spirituality and giving them a place where they find peace and shelter without worrying about their minds and what they should or shouldn't do with their lives. Just you and Their Lordships and anyone you wish to connect to.

So I give the tools and I try to heal the wounds so you can find your way to that connection and find yourself and your own power. Is this not what I am, or was, supposed to do?

Granted it is in a different format, a different ashram (is sannyas actually beneficial in this day and age? Can I really relate to everyone best that way? Can I relate to myself best that way?), a different understanding, and a different relationship with others. Yes, the relationships are now based on whatever we make them to be by mutual consent. After all, we are adults and do not need to be dictated to. Is this wrong? Shall I remain condemned as valueless because I made changes that I felt in the bottom of my still sincere heart were better for everyone that I knew?

If I get a bit sharp in my words sometimes, it is because I really want to get to the bottom of things. I mean no harm. I do wish you well and I do offer you and everyone love for that is all I really have to give. I thank you for this opportunity to express myself.

[Mihail]

Dear Auttareya.

After reading your letters I got very unusual experience. I feel from
your letter that you vouchsafe Hari to help you. At list kind of a strange
attitude. And I don't also think that by saying all kind of thing to
him you'll get some extra spiritual realization. Non any of us.

May be not so spiritual... I can get some useful realizations.

So dear Hari I personally in this forum because I want to listen some spiritual discussions, realizations of others and mostly your opinion about
spiritual topics.

Hari is writing too, isn't he?

I think most of us here for all this. But some inspired that
many people reading them here, getting harsh and harsh toward
you just to express themselves. I don't feel that this kind of letters
can give some spiritual help to anyone. So maybe it is possible to
moderate this kind of letters for the sake of other spiritually searching
people.

I cannot see any sake for me to moderate this kind of letters.

Also I think that others spiritually searching people will have benefit while reading this kind of letters and the answers.

After all this is your forum and you don't obliged to hear all this
not constructive, senseless letters.

Please who read my letter comment my point by few words.
Thank you.

I commented.

[Dhana-da]

Greetings, friends!
Infinite thanks the master Hari!
Probably someone will be inspired with my history..
I Come back in the past... -On the one hand-inspiring and saving "new" sights of Hari, on the other hand-"strange" acts and statements from official line ISKCON.
I,m in full confusion! In the evening very sincerely I pray Shri Panchatattva... I Ask to give understanding! Has woken up in the morning, and in consciousness the information enclosed by Someone! " Acts of Hari-it performance for "correct", for "scientist" of weight, and real position of the teacher outside of suspicions!After that mystical experience which has placed all in the places a life has changed! Many wonderful revelations, comprehension, books, dialogue! Behind each new experience I felt and saw the same temperament, the same style, the same shade and "aroma" which belongs to the teacher!
Therefore I always knew-th not one! Me conduct! To become the normal person who searches for the God, it was difficult to become socially adequate, but it happens! Thanks, Hariji!
I wish all -Listen to the heart!

[Nanda]

In short: I left the position and externals, but not the relationships and the internals.

Dear Auttareya, this quote of our Hari is essential: it is a real picture of our relationship with a spiritual master, spiritual friend, guide or however you want to say. This eternal relationship with someone who inspires you and helps you by his acts and words and, above all - with his pure love, is something what is indestructible even after death. This is ours in all of our lifes. Nothing and noone can destroy this conection of course, if this strong feeling is sincere and recognized in the heart.

This means that ISKCON circumstances from several years ago could not destroy your love and deep conection with someone so important to you. We were supposed to be his (Harri's) support at that time to understand him, to love him more than ever and to send our love and positive energy to help him overcome illnes, dishonesty, betrayal and all horrible things that happened to him at that obscure ISCKON time, a very shameful time.

During all those years, I kept all letters, comments, reactions, attacks... "pamho blablabla", but last year I threw away all that garbage. It is obvious even to the loudest attakers from that time what a big mistake they have made, or, for Krishna put them in the situations where they had to recognize what they did to Hari.

Please, try to look all situation from the other point of view - Hari's point of view. Be in his position for just a moment - simple exercise: 2000 diciples (or more) at that time - two thousand! an army. Diciples whom you gave everything what you had - endless love, knowledge, shelter, help, advices, understanding... and more. They adore you, they pay obeisances, they are eager to be as close as possible to you during festivals ("look at me, I am special, I am sitting next to the lotus feet of my Guru, I am choosen amongst all of you!").
BUT! in the moment when this Guru needs those 2000 loves, supports, understandings, shelters, helps - he is faced with ambis and emptiness.

I strongly beleive that now, it is not appropriate to dig up old wounds of someone who is our sincere friend. Let past be past. Embrace this wonderful opportunity to be here in love.

Hari said you in one of his posts:
"Since that time it has been the choice of those who were connected to me to either remain connected, try to re-establish a connection, try to create a connection if they felt it was not there before, or reject all connections for whatver reason. Some feel the best way to deal with me is to neglect me totally as this is really the best way to express your disdain for another (and certainly it is very effective, take my word for it).

Alas, I find it hard to forget them. This is my personal pain."

Read again the last sentence of this quote and try to see the heart of someone who carries such a pain. Don't you think that he deserves to be loved? Don't you think that he deserves to be in peace and harmony in this time after all?

Be a friend. Be happy to have opportunity, to be again a part of a spiritual family as all of us are.

[prajalpaspeaker]

Hari: Here is a point that I feel needs to be expressed and maybe it will help. I left ISKCON and the artificiality and rigidness of its structure which I feel directly created and maintained the serious problems of child abuse and the disfunction of the youth, sexual frustration in all its manifestations, the severe death wish of most of its members (that manifests in self-created diseases as an exit policy), the fear and frustration of women, the disregard for families which are the foundation of any society, the wasteful and draining centralized management, the victorian values that have no relation to the real world that we all do live in even though we try to forget it, the intense competition for power, position, and the exploitation of others for economic gain.

That one paragraph I think, is very important. These are the faults of Iskcon coming from way back during Prabhupada's days with us in physical presence. Prabhupada talked often about the need for Varnashrama and to stop making so many "show bottle" disciples. And saying that not all were Brahmanas. But the institution was hell bent to keep the system of so many "show bottles" being made. Untill the end where Prabhupada leaves asking to be allowed to go, by Ox Cart to Govardhana Hill on Govardhana Puja Day. But even that was not allowed by the institution leaders.

I think they were so conscerned about disciples and who is who's disciple, Prabhupada gave the 11 names. But some of us realized that this was not the Movement, the "real" movement is to live at home, take care of the cow, chant Hare Krishna. Simple Living/High Thinking

The 11 zoned out acharyas got the bricks and morter, and now see what it has come to. But look at the devotees following, at home away from the false stuff, not pretending to be brahmana etc. We just do our best and chant Hare Krishna, at home, is'nt that a good thing? We don't have big issues of disciples and gurus, just Srila Prabhupada, and the service given us by him.

That is about all I want to say about that now, and thanks for the memories Hari! Sorry if I have jumped into this disscussion ununounced, I just found it. Thanks Jatayu Prabhu!

[dasosmin]

The thoughts thats comes to my mind while reading this Is simply:What was ISKCON established By Srila Prabhupada supposed to Give thoose souls comming there anyway???Was It not so that Srila Prabhupada JUST COME to Give us KNoledge By printing and distributing Books???How to use this Knoledge is up to us and how to establish relationships with other souls in this world is up to us.After All THE LORD HEARS ALL OUR PRAYERS and as Lord Caitanya He is After all Patitapavana and Remember His Lotus Feet Anything difficult becomes easy and FORGETTING HIS LOTUS fEET ANYTHING SIMPLE becommes even impossibel.

So Krishna Is Not Locked In to some Temple or COntrolled By some Authorieties But Controlled By real Bhakti.SO thus others Can at best just Help us out of there compassion

If we expect anything Else from ISKCON,I have learned by my experiences and thoughtfullness,We are missunderstanding Srila Prabhupadas Mercy.

After all DEVOTIONAL service is not controlled by material circumstances and thus not by a building called a Temple.Anywhere at anytime We can perform atleast one of the 9 processes of devotional sercvice.If we cannot achive proper vijan in this subjet matter HOW we gonna impart this Wonderfull saving Knews to all 5 milliard souls WHo cannot live together within the Brick Temple Building.

SO What Srila Prabhupadas "student"Sri Hari Has donne for other souls Cannot be mesure in the wealth of the Whole Universe By all His enourmous amount of Classes etc.

After all just to engage ones ears in a little Hearing means engaging someone in devotional service and even the smallest service can protect one from the Greatest Danger.

We are just acting mainly like spoiled Kids due to been newly born into spirirtual domain and having sooo much support.Compare are situation WIth the Christians we can easely understand how much wonderfull help we been giving.But when the test comes WE see Who actually took advantage of thoose lesson.THATS not The teachers Fault if somebodie didnt cared.i SE IN MY OWN HEART that only the wisdom imparted mainly By Sri Hari I can overcomme practicly all mayas tricky filosofie and temtations.So i Hope I can prove my self in the near future to become as the fruit of what Good tree can produce.As Srila Prabhupada Said:I should Come In a Golden Car.

Krishna Has Unlimited Wealth No bodie CAN not Get what one deserve due to some idea om LIMITED sources.If Krihsna IS the Doer and the Owner of Everything How can One find fault in others??.SUper Souls Guiding all souls Including thoose Who are in ants bodie.So wouldnt Super Soul also Guid properly thoose souls who Wants to serve Him???


We are Here to develop Krishna Conciusness By Remembering the PEACEFORMULA:Krishna is the owner of everything
KRISHNA IS THE CONTROLLER OF EVERYTHING
KRISHNA IS ones VERY BEST FRIEND


WHO CAN BE DISSTURBED REMEMEBERING Krishna is my best friend.??A best Friend Always Arrange the best sitaution for His friend.So whatever position we are in is due to Our best friend Kindly arranged that for us to developed best och fastes in the nicest way Wich obviusly means sometimes when certain quality hasnt developed we be pushed by circumstances to realice certain deficiency in our Character etc WICH is cetainly painful acknoledgement.So a good techer help one to see ones faults and gives one the knoledge How to correct them.To speak of ones Good qualities arent really nessairy they ar after all at the sametime Borrowed feathers anywhy