The social fabric of our lives

The place where members can exchange as they like between themselves. A kind of sidewalk cafe for spiritualists.
gangster_of_love
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Post by gangster_of_love »

When it comes to the use of the language and conceptulization for modern day varnashrama, or of the material side of varnashrama, I think you hit the nail on the head with your post. Brilliant!

Although you also wrote this
I see the present value of varnasrama as a psychological tool to dealing with people who touch upon qualities that fit into basic patterns. I see little value in trying to make the structure of social, economic and governmental organization work in the modern world for a few billion reasons. This does not mean it can never. I do not wish to limit the future. I am sure there is much to be learned from these psychological profiles and the interactions they suggest. It is another way at looking at interactions and I am sure when those who have the opportunity to utilize these profiles do so within a work or social environment it will give them the tools to make things better. After all, this is all that ultimately counts within any organization: to make things better for those within it.
In my opinion the value of varnashrama is in creating a social environment where like minded people can participate in a communal spiritual endeavor. What you wrote I feel only touches upon the material side of varnashrama. In other words the purpose of varnashrama is one thing, how to make the economic and practical living situation comfortable for everyone is another matter, which I think you have commented on to great effect.
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Hari
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Post by Hari »

gangster_of_love wrote:When it comes to the use of the language and conceptulization for modern day varnashrama, or of the material side of varnashrama, I think you hit the nail on the head with your post. Brilliant!
Hey, thanks!
gangster_of_love wrote:Although you also wrote this
I see the present value of varnasrama as a psychological tool to dealing with people who touch upon qualities that fit into basic patterns. I see little value in trying to make the structure of social, economic and governmental organization work in the modern world for a few billion reasons. This does not mean it can never. I do not wish to limit the future. I am sure there is much to be learned from these psychological profiles and the interactions they suggest. It is another way at looking at interactions and I am sure when those who have the opportunity to utilize these profiles do so within a work or social environment it will give them the tools to make things better. After all, this is all that ultimately counts within any organization: to make things better for those within it.
In my opinion the value of varnashrama is in creating a social environment where like minded people can participate in a communal spiritual endeavor. What you wrote I feel only touches upon the material side of varnashrama. In other words the purpose of varnashrama is one thing, how to make the economic and practical living situation comfortable for everyone is another matter, which I think you have commented on to great effect.
Your comment is certainly correct and relevant. Certain spiritualists will certainly feel comfortable relating in an experimental environment where they can utilize these 'material' principles to organize the practicality of their lives and interface them into their spiritual development. It is hard to comment on all aspects of such a system in these small texts. I did write a whole book on this long ago.

Many of those who come to this site, I am starting to see, are new to me and are not aware of the last seven years of my presentations. Without entering into a thread of explanations which are far too broad and demanding for me to handle, let me simply offer that I have a very different way of seeing 'matter' and that my comments about social, emotional, psychological, or familial structures are not presented with the idea that these things are divorced from spirit. But alas, I have let out the cat and it is running wild! Maybe not... (My dog looks around. "A cat?" he says, "Shall I chase it?" "DoggieWog," says I, "please cool your jets!")

In a few words: your endeavor to create a social organization and it spiritual relevance depends far more on who does it than what they do with it.

Abientot!
gangster_of_love
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Post by gangster_of_love »

Hari wrote:
Many of those who come to this site, I am starting to see, are new to me and are not aware of the last seven years of my presentations. Without entering into a thread of explanations which are far too broad and demanding for me to handle, let me simply offer that I have a very different way of seeing 'matter' and that my comments about social, emotional, psychological, or familial structures are not presented with the idea that these things are divorced from spirit. But alas, I have let out the cat and it is running wild! Maybe not... (My dog looks around. "A cat?" he says, "Shall I chase it?" "DoggieWog," says I, "please cool your jets!")
I have read a small bit of things you have written and I was impressed, although I have not read a great deal. When I said "material" I meant it as a way of describing anything not directly involving a purely spiritual activity, like say kirtan or hearing from a person give a talk on a spiritual topic. I understood that you weren't writing about the psychological/emotional interplay of a varnashrama community divorced from the holistic spiritual dimension, I was just saying that your comments could apply to any type of social/communal interaction, not necessarily varnashrama. The uniqueness of varnashrama is in it's vedic theological milieu, in it's specific spiritual ideology. What that is, is of course open to interpretation. That dynamic and living interpretation is what makes a "spiritual" community, as opposed to a "religious" community. One is based on a living dynamic expression from the timeless dimension being expressed through individuals, the other is all about following dogma and suppressing or invalidating the dynamic living expressions if they aren't found explicitly stated in dogma.
In a few words: your endeavor to create a social organization and it spiritual relevance depends far more on who does it than what they do with it.
Very true. I realized that long ago. Thats why I stress non-judgementalism when it comes to people's lifestyles. The ISKCON or Gaudiya Math or really any or most overtly "religious" communties, usually impart a very judgemental mentality onto the members. They look at people by a set standard of what is acceptable behavior, if people don't live up to that then they judge them to be "fallen" or unworthy of being treated as an equal. I come across this problem all of the time among ex-gaudiya/iskconites. They are not only judgemental with others but also with themselves. They view "spirituality" as being cognate with renunciation of pleasures that are not explicitly spiritual acitivities. So they view life as a battle where they are trying to defeat their own desires to do things that are not explicit "spiritual" activities. And because they cannot they then judge themselves and others who cannot in a harsh uncompromising way.

For them I can only say that "spirituality" is not the renouncing of something, it is the addition of something. There may be things that can impede living a spiritual life, like excessive intoxication (you'll end up sleeping all the time or too wired to be happy), or other excesses, but simply renouncing everything but explicit spiritual acitivity is not really the yoga tradition. Yoga is all about being comfortable with your life, enjoying your life more, not less. Adding spirituality, not renouncing "material pleasures". The monastic renunciative model preached by various yoga groups and other religions as being absolutely necessary for spiritual growth, is really not supported in the traditions they claim to represent. They produce self loathing, and harsh judgemental attitudes towards others, including spouses, children, parents and other family members. The overall dysfunctionality of those religious communities is a product of the members dogmatic following and enforcement of improper teachings. In a way they need to be "de-programmed" from self destructive self denial and judgementalism.

Then as you rightly pointed out, a viable spiritual community can succeed. As we have seen so far, none have succeeded. Eventually everyone leaves feeling disgusted with the dysfunctionality, the few that stay do so because there is some economic situation favorable to them. And the few that join do so out of ignorance of what they are getting themselves into.

What is needed is more or louder voices of sanity in order to give an alternative to the one dimensional "spirituality" which has achieved dominance in the minds of so many as being the "only authentic way".
Kula-pavana
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Post by Kula-pavana »

Hari wrote:I see the present value of varnasrama as a psychological tool to dealing with people who touch upon qualities that fit into basic patterns.
Yes, it is a very good tool and I use it all the time. It is perhaps the only form of "psychoanalysis" I can relate to and find useful... :D
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Post by Hari »

Kula-pavana wrote:
Hari wrote:I see the present value of varnasrama as a psychological tool to dealing with people who touch upon qualities that fit into basic patterns.
Yes, it is a very good tool and I use it all the time. It is perhaps the only form of "psychoanalysis" I can relate to and find useful... :D
Good grief! :(

The sentence should read, "I see the present value of varnasrama as a psychological tool for dealing with people who have certain qualities that fit into these basic patterns."

Send me back to English class, please! :?
dasosmin
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Post by dasosmin »

Hello Gangster of "Maffioso" Love ;O)!

I was reading thrue your comments regarding ISKCONs project and its function.


I like some of your ideas and understand the background for thoose feelings,I But also get some other thoughts regarding the actullay effect if Thoose ideas would be the if only that would be the leading motto.As a balance to blind and emotionall engagements within ISKCON its ofcourse a good start.

What makes me somewhat agitated is ofcourse the risk that thoose who wants to be strict is concider as a problem in the community ypu discuss.After all In all actvitites there is all kinds of level om interest and your prestatesments in that regard outline a Non Judgemental concept But still You are judgemental to certain kinds of characters.SO how to let all kinds fo groups be alloud And not judge by thoos who want the freedom to develop in a community or social structur as one wants???

Allthou society outside ISKCON claims we give everybodie equal chance we can see still that Elit sportsmen are indeed getting advantages beacuse they are economicly profitable etc.Thats has been within ISKCON as well And is unavoidebel AS LONG we have not peole WHo have full faith in the Lords Law of Karma and and Gods kindness upon thoose who seriusly trying to help thems self with A hearts desire to develop pure Love.

To accept one is not pure means humbleness and its means one dont think he/she is the only one who knows whats best for him/herself BUT is actually open for advice.So If a society should develop, there must be somekind of openess for intelligent advice for further personal development, otherwice,IF : To just do as one feels Is the motto, is only perfect for two kinds of pure devotees :MAYAS AND Krishnas.Everone between need to concider ones feelings to see the actuall future effect to act upon thoose feeling and THUS THINK before rather than After .

Srila Prabhupada mentioned There is allways a leader In a living societies.Even in Criminal societies there is somebodie concider the "alpha" etc.So the social pressure helps the conditioned soul (Who by nature have the tendency to degrade=becomme under the modes=naturally Its easy to fall down than to fall UP:O) )
So to belive in the just idea Of nothing organiced is to beleive in that people will do the needed rightly anyway Because all people are good and not in mayas clutches.So the writer might be, Still we all should be afraid of Maya.After all Srila Prabhupada mentioned:You have not enough fear of maya.

SO its t o find a good balance.
Wish the Dust of Guru And Gauranga and there followers allways be my hearts source of inspiration and power of Life
dasosmin
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Post by dasosmin »

I dont see any diffrence in thoose expression Rather I concider the first writing was more refined and sublime BuT I have never had any english class BUT Just been trying to listen and reading within ISKCON.

Hari wrote:
Kula-pavana wrote:
Hari wrote:I see the present value of varnasrama as a psychological tool to dealing with people who touch upon qualities that fit into basic patterns.
Yes, it is a very good tool and I use it all the time. It is perhaps the only form of "psychoanalysis" I can relate to and find useful... :D
Good grief! :(

The sentence should read, "I see the present value of varnasrama as a psychological tool for dealing with people who have certain qualities that fit into these basic patterns."

Send me back to English class, please! :?
Wish the Dust of Guru And Gauranga and there followers allways be my hearts source of inspiration and power of Life
Janus
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Post by Janus »

Bravo! That was a very well thought out post Hari. Nice to see people thinking contextually. Even if we were able to revert to a solar technology and agrarian lifestyle, we are not the same people as they were back then, in mythology.
Self realization begins at home
gangster_of_love
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Post by gangster_of_love »

dasosmin wrote:Hello Gangster of "Maffioso" Love ;O)!



What makes me somewhat agitated is ofcourse the risk that thoose who wants to be strict is concider as a problem in the community ypu discuss.After all In all actvitites there is all kinds of level om interest and your prestatesments in that regard outline a Non Judgemental concept But still You are judgemental to certain kinds of characters.SO how to let all kinds fo groups be alloud And not judge by thoos who want the freedom to develop in a community or social structur as one wants???
There is nothing wrong with being judgemental. If someone beats on his wife then you can judge that person to be unfit to be married. If someone is doing something which is harmful to the community then the community has the right to protect themselves. So my point is that judgementalism is perfectly fine in one context but not necessarily so in another context. If you want to live in a harmonius happy community where there is social interaction amongst the members, then it would be counter productive to judge people on personal behavior which is not harmful to others. If a person is not following strictly the standards of the yoga ashrama in his or her daily lifestyle, then that is their business, nobody elses.

Nobody wants to live amongst people who judge them to be failures, unfit, weak, etc, for nothing more then not following the standard lifestyle of yoga ashramas. If people want to live in a harmonius social situation, then judging others based on their following or not following a set of prescribed rules and regulations which are not affecting others in a real sense would be counter productive if the community is to grow or retain membership, it would be wise to live and let live. Otherwise the community will never really exist in a true sense of the word.

We have seen from the past examples that any community that Iskcon has attempted has always ended up a failure in the sense of developing a community. They have been able to create an infrastructure and they have been able to get people to live in their communties, but the result is always that people are coming and then going. They are unable to maintain a stable population. That is because the situation is too high pressure, too judgemental, too authoritarian.


Srila Prabhupada mentioned There is allways a leader In a living societies.Even in Criminal societies there is somebodie concider the "alpha" etc.So the social pressure helps the conditioned soul (Who by nature have the tendency to degrade=becomme under the modes=naturally Its easy to fall down than to fall UP:O) )
So to belive in the just idea Of nothing organiced is to beleive in that people will do the needed rightly anyway Because all people are good and not in mayas clutches.So the writer might be, Still we all should be afraid of Maya.After all Srila Prabhupada mentioned:You have not enough fear of maya.

SO its t o find a good balance.
Organization is good. Where the problem arises is when organization becomes turned into totalitarianism. An organized community brings benefits to the members because as a group they can accomplish more then as individuals, but when the organization takes on a totalitarian mode then it hurts the members of the community.
The soft and pliable overcomes the hard and inflexible-Lao Tzu

To subjugate the enemy's army without doing battle is the highest of excellence-Sun Tzu

And some guy'd laugh and I'd bust his head-A Boy Named Sue
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Hari
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Post by Hari »

I look at these social creations in a rather simple manner. It does not take long to observe if something can work or not. When it is observed that something does not work, then one who wishes to make it work will make adjustments until it works or works better.

Most projects that I saw or participated in worked to some extent and constantly needed adjustment. The general trend was usually disintegrative unless there was a powerful leader who carried the defects of the community and kept it working on the basis of their charisma and words of encouragement. However, observation has shown that this works for a limited time. The long-term trend is, as has been stated by our lovable gangster, for a constant change of membership and unstability. There are other constant factors such as the adherance to certain values and principles that rule the social fabric of the community and that those who leave usually have problems with these values and principles which caused them to feel unhappy, not part of the community, not wanted, irrelevant, or exploited.

My conclusion is based on observation of what makes people want to remain within a social structure: Their desire to be in that structure cannot be dependent on the words, desires, or encouragement of another party outside of their family. It must be based on their own capacity and possibility to gain prosperity, acceptance, peace, comfort, and facility within that community.

Therefore, if a community wishes to survive, it must provide the structure within which each unit can fulfill its needs which brings it to a community in the first place. Any ideals or theories that interfere with this thus interfere with the goal of creating a community.

One should then question: Is the mission to create a community or is the mission to create followers of ideals? If it is to create followers, then there is no need to waste time attempting to create a community for followers can follow from any situation. If the ideal is to create a community, then one should design it to fulfill the needs of people, not ideals of how their personal lives should be lived. Or rather, the ideal should be to create a community that fulfills the needs of those within it who have come together for some reason, in this case, to have a nice place to live spiritually and prosper.

The only way to balance the two is to have a community that fulfills the needs of people who are spiritually inclined. This becomes much easier when one puts community first, the context of spirituality second, and removes the insistence on being a follower of ideals.

If one feels this is not possible, intolerable, useless or whatever, one should then re-examine the validity of the attempt to create a community for it is possible (which means that this should be examined by those who desire to formulate communities) that community and followers are incompatible concepts. Perhaps this is why one says, "Groups of followers," rather than "Community of followers."

You can have a community based on certain concepts, for example, a community of people who like to help children, or a community of scientists who believe in peace, or even a community of vaisnavas, but none of these imply that the people within the community can live in a neighborhood where their neighbors worry about whether they are living up to the ideals of the conceptions that imply community membership.

Living together and thinking together are actually two different concepts but for some it is very hard to see the difference and in the ISKCON communities, or the Mormons or whatever, this distinction blurs by design. In places where you are allowed to live together and think differently, community in the physical, social and economic sense can thrive and thus one can create a social fabric where there are threads running in different directions. One cannot create a fabric if the threads run in the same direction for there will be no inter-twining threaded structure characteristic of cloth.

To keep the size of this text to a minimum, this text is filled with assumptions and is not written as an exhaustive explanation . Thinking persons can take from it a way to continue the evolution of communities and the narrow minded can reject it as presumptuous. Thus it serves a purpose for all groups of people.
Kula-pavana
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Post by Kula-pavana »

In the last 200 years or so, there have been many, many attempts to establish communites focused on a particular philosophy or religious afiliation/idea. The vast majority of these attempts failed (which is predictable) but some DID succeed. I'm not sure there is just one formula for such success, but it seems that practicality and economic viability were just as important (to put it mildly) as philosophical considerations. I would describe the devotees approach in this area as: "Head in the clouds, feet in the mud" :lol:
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harsi
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Post by harsi »

Kula-pavana wrote:

In the last 200 years or so, there have been many, many attempts to establish communites focused on a particular philosophy or religious afiliation/idea. The vast majority of these attempts failed (which is predictable) but some DID succeed."

And which are this, for example?
Kula-pavana
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small sample from US

Post by Kula-pavana »

Sites of American Utopian Communities Open to the Public

Shaker Communities:
Mt Lebanon Shaker Village
New Lebanon, New York

Sabbathday Lake Shaker Village
Poland Spring, Maine

Canterbury Shaker Village
Canterbury, New Hampshire

Hancock Shaker Village
Pittsfield Massachusetts

Shakertown at Pleasant Hill
Harrodsburg, Kentucky

Shaker Historical Museum
Shaker Heights, Ohio

Enfiled Shaker Museum
Enfield, New Hampshire

Harmonists:

Historic Harmony
Harmony, Pennsylvania

Old Economy Village
Ambridge, Pennsylvania

New Harmony
New Harmony, Indiana

Other Utopian Communities:

Oneida Community Mansion House
Oneida, New York

Amana Colonies
Amana, Iowa

Zoar Village State Memorial
Zoar, Ohio

Bishop Hill Heritage Association
Bishop Hill, Illinois

Icarian Living History Museum
Nauvoo, Illinois

Ephrata Cloister
Ephrata, Pennsylvania

Historic Bethel German Colony
Bethel, Missouri

Old Aurora Colony Museum
Aurora, Oregon

Old Salem
Winston-Salem, North Carolina

Korehan Unity
Estero, Florida
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harsi
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Re: small sample from US

Post by harsi »

Kula-pavana wrote:Sites of American Utopian Communities Open to the Public
Thank you very much dear Kula-pavanaji for the valuable and informative information. You did me a great favour by supplying me this. I hope all is fine with you.
For those interested for moore info on this matter, here is the website I found where one can see all the pictures and websites: easternet.edu/depts/amerst/utopia
floridastateparks.org/koreshan/default

Or try also yale.edu/ynhti/curiculum/units/1987/2/87.02.06.x.htm
Thefec.org ; fic.ic.org from the Intentional Communities Fellowship. Ic.org/icsa from the International Communal Studies,
Gaia.org from GEN Global ecovillage Network in Denmark, cohousing.org, pcdf.org/meadows/cohousing and the one, which I personally, find quite interesting, since they give, on their pages, a great insight into the sociological, psychological, philosophical and even socialpolitical and legislative framework of such kind of communities, namely: spiritualneighborhood.org;... /guidebook.htm; or...communityconscienceadvocate.org;..../cca.pdf and citizen.chalenge.net

With kind regards
Harsi
harsi.hm@web.de

"We are all responsible for all"
- Fyodor Dostoevsky :idea:
Open up your mind and heart to new experiences of consciousness.
Kula-pavana
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Post by Kula-pavana »

you are most welcome Harsiji.

it is a topic very, very dear to me. I have a kshatriya nature and I think Krishna has a plan for me to help devotees with community development. all my adult life I worked as a manager and I have a natural tendency for practicality. real working communities are developed by practical people, not priests. most brahmanas are completely impractical and tend to complicate things for no good reason - I have seen it a thousand times. they may have the best intentions, but the end result is usually frustration. in the end the brahmanas simply say:

it was an excellent system or idea, but the people were not qualified enough...

what a joke! a good system ANTICIPATES people's imperfections and works around it. those that do not, are called UTOPIAN.
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