Harimedia Forum

Hare Krishna dear Hari Prabhu,

This is pretty cool, being able to actually correspond with one of Iskcon's past "Good as God" type guys! No disrespect intended.

As you can see from the title here, I am asking about the different types of "gurus" that seem to be available to Iskcon devotees.

My question is after so many years of being part of Iskcon, indeed being part of the Zonal Acharya period even, what do you think is the correct idea, for initiations in Iskcon?.

I have thought about these different "gurus" some, and feel that the right thing would have been to have Prabhupada as our Guru for Iskcon after he left us physically. And wait for the next "Self Effulgent Acharya" using the list of names perhaps as our "ritviks" (representative of acharya). But I have never felt comfortable with anything done by tamal krishna, who wrote that famous july 9,77 letter. Even if it appears to have Prabhupada's Signature obscured by the Krishna Balarama Logo on the original.

I am sorry if this has already been gone over here on your site, and someone please dirrect me to the spot, and I will be informed if it already has been.

It is kind of shocking to me to read your bio Hari Prabhu, and see that you joined just a few short years before I did, and you were always respectfull towards me, I appreciated that, but how could you really be "as good as God" back then?

Others please don't fear that I am here to uphold the "ritvik" doctrine, I am not. But after being in Iskcon for many years and giving so much to the institution, and then finding out that many of the Iskcon Gurus after Srila Prabhupada were only faking their exalted status, I have gone back to faith simply in Prabhupada as our only Guru. And seeing the role of Initiations as being second to being a follower first.

No disrespect taken.

My view on the situation is different. I do not believe that initiations are required. I do not believe that gurus in the sense that they have existed within recent times are required. I feel that the word guru is so filled with connotations that no one can think straight any more.

A guru is a teacher. Let it simply be so. If what counts is understanding how to evolve spiritually, then stick to the essence of this and avoid losing track of what is important in the mire of religious controversy. Let people hear from whoever gives them the most inspiration to advance. Let people decide for themselves how to associate and with whom. Creating a family, or a limited grouping under some 'authority' figure and restricting people by this is not healthy any longer. This is the modern world with modern communications. There are many more things to think about and people to listen to than could have ever been imagined in the past. The entire situation in life is so different that the traditions of the past are not as relevant to modern man.

This is my opinion only. As I see it, and live it, there is no need of gurus at all, neither initiations. Rather, you seek out the truth, find it where you can, feel what resonates well with you and use the tools you get to develop and become that great personality you are, fully empowered to be of service to the world. This seems to be enough for me.

Others think this is wrong. That is fine. This site, my broadcasts, these forums are for those who wish to see things in another way.

I wish you well and the attainment of peace in your life.

Excuse me but could one then say ;So it wouldnt be wrong to be attached to some one who one find to be paticulary inspiring as kind of; favorit servant of the Lord and His devotees.???

If being attached means you wish to continue to associate with someone as opposed to leaving their association, then certainly what you say is true. If being attached means you have to believe what they say and follow what they say, then I would say that this is not healthy.

That is why I insist that no one has to listen to what I say; neither do you have to agree with it. What I write is my opinion and nothing more. If what I say helps you in some way, fine, if not, I am sorry but I tried. If you find help anywhere else then fine. Go where you need to, research what you have to, experience as you must, and live your own life, for all that counts is your own personal spiritual evolution.

Is it really possible that one person has all the proper answers to everything? If you believe that, then you have to spend a lot of time adjusting in your own head and heart those things which you doubt. Much energy is expended on rationalizing things that do not make sense to you. We then fall into the position of being apologists for incorrect statements to maintain, as we see it, the integrity of the one we accept.

It is healthier to live in the present moment and judge for yourself what is right or wrong for you right now. Later on you are free to change your decision according to what is best for you. Restricting that freedom is to cut at the very root of the natural spiritual power that makes us great. After all, if we are given freedom of choice to ultimately decide to love or not, why then would our choices be restricted on all other levels that are far less important? It is not logical, neither is it correct. We are free to choose at every moment and when it comes to what we believe and who we accept, this freedom is of the utmost importance.

For example, (as I know who is writing but I will not reveal it here) you might think you accept me, or your wife may feel she is really my true follower (her words) but your sudden influx of posts are so contradictory to what I have been discussing that it is clear that you are maintaining a fantasy that makes you feel secure. At such times reality ceases to be of value as it contradicts deeper desires to keep things in the comfort zone of those things previously believed. I am not criticizing you for this; rather, I wish that you were more aware of it so you could take advantage of what we are discussing here.

I request you to cool off the rhetoric in these forums and try to understand what we are doing. I do not wish to discuss Hare Krishna things neither do I want to be restricted to expressing myself in terms of that philosophy or understanding. I don’t want to have to always contradict what you say either. It expends too much energy when one has to work against the energy of another. I would rather flow together when we find our growth shares common energetic patterns.

If you would be so kind, please listen to the lecture "Understand, Understood" and apply it in these forums. Thank you.

"The Swedish summer is the nicest day of the year."

Krishnas Dear Hari!!!

I dont claim IM a follower allthou I dont see the wrong of beeing one if one find a faith in a soul whole heartedly.

Im trying to see things according to the pattern I been abel to grasp in this life regarding the wisdom the Books ISKCON Been publishing.

I understand that what you want one to develop is a naturally relationship to the guiding voice of the supersoul and surrender as one concider ones desires fit to that basic pattern.I understand That one shoud se the super soul in all living entities actions and thus be abel to have every souls life style as a kind of Guru,since every life style has some kind of accepted arrangement for solving lifes diffrent problems.Still Prabhupada also mentioned That everything Takes practice to learn so to just act according to ones inspiration is OK ofcourse, for thoose souls who are blessed with that amount of mercy beeing garanteed ticket back to godhead,but in my case I feel the need of trying to accept the basic principels of Sadhana Bhakta as much as I can allthou IM A only great in the matter of beeing a space case.I have had my time beeing, alloud by the great saint to get their mercy,while beeing spaced out and confused and also licking my wounds,as well learning thrue thought process about the previus experiences within my life.But Now I feel the need to learn from the exampel of the aunty WHos ear was bitten of by the Boy who was about to be hanged.So all thoos tuff experiences in my life has finally giving me a great source help to develop faith in the Mercy of the Lord allthou many times uncertainty is there etc or it might be very difficult .I feel the Mercy of having the "lesh" arround my neck loose and long extended is time to tighten it up since its after all allways diffent times of life like the season.Some season is very active and some vary passiv so After this thoos 7 years of more or less resting and reparing etc I feel im comming more cloose into a more active situation because Im even want that since most of my q?estion regarding everything within and "outside" ISKCON has been more or less givien a logic reason for why it must happened or why it happened and why I was in that or this situation etc.So thus serving the Ideas Srila Prabhupada wanted is for me my ultimate dream im hoping to come true.

Idont know if You concider this also in the wrong mood so maybe the Its time to leave.

What you have written cannot be 'wrong' since it is what you feel. It is certainly a different mood than the rest of the forums, or at least my part of them. According to what I read in your reply you seem to want to remain within the ISKCON type of conception. My replies to you or my other posts in this site most likely will not reinforce your ideals and therefore you may feel some discomfort in these communications. If I were replying to you personally I would feel no need to disagree with you as I do now for I have no reason to discourage you from your convictions even though I do not agree with them. But if my personal realizations are being questioned and I am expected to answer honestly from my own experience, I will disagree with the concepts and presentation you make.

This does not mean you are not welcome in this forum or in the broadcasts; rather, it means you most likely will find a more compatible method of development were you to engage in something which is in tune with your ideas. As you seem to be strongly leaning towards being a faithful and devoted follower of a guru who will give you strict guidelines and instructions to follow, it would not make sense for you to do anything else for you feel that you need this now to resolve the lack of direction in your life. If this is so, then fine and it is good for you to accept this. Having accepted this, you should then look around in this particular web site and see that none of these elements are present. After all, I am simply relaying my experiences and not giving any directions, neither making any demands. I never speak about gurus, sadhana, rules or regulations, better or worse ways of understanding the divine, or any of the usual discussions one finds in ISKCON or related groups. After finding this out, you should then look to see where you can find these elements. As you are disillusioned with ISKCON, as many are, perhaps you can find what you are looking for with some other Gaudiya Vaishnava groups who basically think in the same terms, but with different structures and with different personalities? But again, I personally find nothing in common with these groups either so I am not suggesting this as a superior alternative. I am just trying to assist you to find what you are looking for and also cool off my forums! ':lol:'

You might even decide, as others have done, that the only solution is to follow Prabhupada directly as the only one, more or less in the mood of Protestant Christians who follow Christ alone. If this is your choice then you should arrange your life accordingly. Even if later on you find someone who you decide is a qualified guru (most likely someone you think Prabhupada would be proud of) and you figure out how to associate with that person and follow the principles they are giving (which would most likely be similar to what Prabhupada gave you) you are always welcome to check in on what we are doing here! Indeed, you can continue to do so now. I am not against your understanding; I simply do not share it.

I wonder if that means to include that Guru Parampara is now useless,oR THAT THERE so much knoledege from the Guru Parampara that one should just choose to accept where knoledge is inspiring one or attract one to become more dedicated to surrender to the attachemnt of becomming purifyed /or /and increasing a service attitude to Krishnas Nitay - Gauranga PASTIMES based on the principel that Our Guru Parampara is after all "JUST" Siksa Guru Parampara???

Dear Subalaji

Only you can decide which knowledge has importance for you or not. Any conclusions you reach can only be yours.

As I said before, I feel that guru means teacher and when the teacher gives you something you find important and value, you respect that and are grateful. It does not matter when the teaching was delivered or how. True knowledge born of realization and experience is always a welcome addition to anyone's life. I object to all the other things that have entered into the ideal of giving wisdom which are associated with the term 'guru.' The essence is the spiritual realization and sharing this is a wonderful thing. I seek this out wherever it may be found.

I am not sure what is bothering you that led you to question as you did, but let me assure you that what you believe or disbelieve it totally your choice at all times. But, this freedom implies acceptance of the responsibility for your actions or choices based upon this belief.

"Zonal Acharya, Living Guru, Ritvik, Self Effulgent Acharya?"

How about some other options from our Vaishnava tradition? There were all kinds of teacher categories in our Vedic heritage, all of them very useful and legitimate. The same goes for our parampara (and what a loaded subject that would be?).

Actually, most ISKCON (or post ISKCON) devotees participating in the current "guru debate" know precious little about this subject. Most even have no clue that their concept of guru is actually decidedly more Tantric than Vedic. Perhaps for them the concept of guru, or truth in general can only have two dimensions...

If Hari still wants to give something to others and share his realizations, there is no need to box him up in one of your narrow and incomplete set of categories.

A teacher is not judged by his title or position, but by the knowledge and understanding he is able to impart to others.

dear harikesa,
sorry for my poor english. in Bhagavad gita krishna say that there is a need for the guru, and who are you to question this statement. you shoud caunt how many times you have said "I" in every answer on the forum.
why do you think your opinion is important? With your limited capacity of brain, you can not understand the acts of krishna and all that he had or has in store for you. you are yust tiny soul and as every other soul in material universe, you think you are so big and inteligent and powerful, and helpfull to other souls (less inteligent of course).

I have left ISCKON before you did because I know there is something very wrong with the organisation (including you as guru and GBC at that time), but stil I know that Shila Prabhupads tichings are the way to go. I was not and I am not perfect but I will be eventualy, by help of his grace srila prabhupad.
When I have drown your etention to some wrong doings in ISKCON and BBT in Sweden you have told me I am craizy and send me out of the room. So do you think you have nothing to apologyze for?

You can not just ignore what you did or how you have behaved in the past, whom did you hurt and so on. You have been the part of the show (ISKCON) by your on will.
So do you think you have nothing to apologyze for?

Theri is a lot more I could add, but what is the use, because people like you always have an excuse. I just wait for the time I will be able to advance and become a pure bhakta. I do not find the excuses and boghus filozofy like you do. I do face my shortcomings and strive to improve by help of krishna and srila prabupads tichings end mercy.

Your prichings are just empty, sentimental bla-bla for thoese who could not be a pure devoties and have droped down but can not addmit it to them selves, as you can not. It is just a way to put some medicine on a wound but it whant help dear Harikesa. you can lie, and tell cheap stories to atract the so called spiritualists and spiritualy interested and spiritualy advanced people, but this is just a crazy delusion of the material world (as you have nicely said to me once).

Your words are useless in the respect of real spiritual advancement.

Sencerily yours

Sacisuta Jaya Prada Dasa

Hari wrote:No disrespect taken.

My view on the situation is different. I do not believe that initiations are required. I do not believe that gurus in the sense that they have existed within recent times are required. I feel that the word guru is so filled with connotations that no one can think straight any more.

A guru is a teacher. Let it simply be so. If what counts is understanding how to evolve spiritually, then stick to the essence of this and avoid losing track of what is important in the mire of religious controversy. Let people hear from whoever gives them the most inspiration to advance. Let people decide for themselves how to associate and with whom. Creating a family, or a limited grouping under some 'authority' figure and restricting people by this is not healthy any longer. This is the modern world with modern communications. There are many more things to think about and people to listen to than could have ever been imagined in the past. The entire situation in life is so different that the traditions of the past are not as relevant to modern man.

This is my opinion only. As I see it, and live it, there is no need of gurus at all, neither initiations. Rather, you seek out the truth, find it where you can, feel what resonates well with you and use the tools you get to develop and become that great personality you are, fully empowered to be of service to the world. This seems to be enough for me.

Others think this is wrong. That is fine. This site, my broadcasts, these forums are for those who wish to see things in another way.

I wish you well and the attainment of peace in your life.

Dear Sir, SSJP das

There is no doubt that you are upset with many things. I am definitely sorry that you feel so hurt. Let me reply to some of your points.

I never said there is no need for teachers. I said there is no need of ‘gurus’ in the distorted sense of the word. There is a big difference, but one can only see the difference when one reads all the related texts in the forums. As I have little interest in getting into a battle about the good or bads or better or worses of gurudom, I have attempted to avoid the issue. There are many discussions about the subject to be found everywhere on the internet today.

What is wrong with the word, "I?" It represents me, the person who is writing or speaking. As this is my web site, created by me to do what I think is best, I suppose I have every right to do what I want with it including using the word I to refer to myself. I know that others like to quote and repeat what they think they read or heard and avoid having to take direct and personal responsibility for what they think and feel, but I do not see the need to do that.

I attempt to be of service through this web site and through the broadcasts. If you do not like what I am offering, which you obviously do not, then feel free to not read what I write or listen to what I speak. There are many other sites to read and many other persons to speak to that you would possibly rather communicate with. Be my guest to visit those other places. Now that you have properly chastised me in public and now that my deviant and puffed up ways are exposed to everyone who foolishly was reading and commenting in these forums, everyone will naturally stop reading what I write and listening to what I say since it has now been revealed to be utter and total nonsense. I am sure that all the visitors to this web site will thank you for the selfless and dedicated service you have rendered them by exposing their illusions about me. I thank you for your clarity and conviction and I think I can speak for others when I thank you on their behalf for straightening out their twisted thought processes with your clear and absolute logic which so powerfully offers no room for discussion or disagreement. This world needs more strong personalities like you to make it the peaceful and loving place it should have been all along if it weren’t for the damned mental speculators.

I do apologize to you for thinking that I could have ever offered anything to you and for so seriously offending you by disagreeing with what you said. Although your version of history is undoubtedly absolutely correct, as is everything else you have written, I draw your attention to the ability of the mind to selectively remember what it wishes to. But then again, you already know that. Further, I am grateful that you have chosen to express yourself the way you have for it demonstrates to me what I have to do to correct myself. I shall now stop everything that I am doing, surrender myself totally to a guru and demand that everyone else do so as well for they are all insignificant little nothings that have nothing to say in their lives but to follow the absolute truth.

Your mood and mentality undoubtedly perfectly represents the mood and mentality of the persons you follow. I am therefore proud to have made your acquaintance in these forums. Certainly you shall attain the purity and perfection you seek for your every action reflects your intense devotional love and spiritual achievement.

Hari wrote: I shall now stop everything that I am doing, surrender myself totally to a guru and demand that everyone else do so as well for they are all insignificant little nothings that have nothing to say in their lives but to follow the absolute truth.

Dear Hari!
There are a lot of qualities that I appreciate in You. And one of the most is a huge sense of humor.

Is it interesting how when everything seems quiet there always will appear somebody with weird thoughts which will force for no reason people to suffer?

For the person who wrote that strange and not polite letter I would like to say that when you say that one have to not mention himself at all because we are nothing important the main thing is Krishna and Praupada, that seems more mayavada (according to the jargon of Indian philosophy) then to speak from once own name.

We are gathered here to share and hear others spiritual realizations and thoughts. What do Hari is wonderful help for lot of people here. And who don't like it - is free to go to billion other sites in the huge ocean of internet.

I may be just as self effulgent as the next guy. Who's to say.

My teacher asked me why one would want to be a guru. Good question. I have been thinking about it. I can only think that one would want power and adoration. A sort of a stepping stone from being a little guy to being a big cheese.