Zonal Acharya, Living Guru, Ritvik , Self Effulgent Acharya?

[dasosmin]

I may be just as self effulgent as the next guy. Who's to say.

Well You cannot ?But if You will becomme then its all glories But before You becomme ther will be some obvius changes in Your character and thus By Your actions You will be revealed whoand where you actually are.If You dont have praise For the Saint who helped You we all now there exist no real divinity since there is no real humility.

[dasosmin]

So You are completly pure and now exaktly whats Krishnas plan with You and why.As I heard tru saint never blame somebodie else but suffer the lifees consequenses as just part of his own bad karma,This is because a real saint is truly Humble and beleive fully in te ALMIGHYTS full Controll And not that there exist some whimsical Jivas in Controll.Thats just the illusoric concept of life.Even ivel acts are been under the Lords controll in that matter that GOD sanction the ACTIONS due to the Karmic situations for thoose souls involved and the development of unfolding the LORDS plan for this planet earth at this time and age.Apure soul would never complain thus on other wrong behaivior but rather humble suffer the sitautions as an arrangement Given By the Lord and look upon the foolish conditoned jives frustrated attemts to blame others as Kickes from the child upon the father or mother.He knows its just ignorance and frustration and thus lIke Jesus Forgives them BECASUE THEY ARE IN ILLUSION AND DOESNT UNDERSTAND THE SITAUTION PROPERLY therefor they behaiv improperly.BUTREMEBER Krishna never forgives Wrong behaivior to His Devotee even Whe the Pure Devotee Prais to the Lord to Forgive Wich a Pure Devoee allways do Since Hes only are a true well wisher of all the Conditoned souls.The exam?ple is there with Durvasa muni.He offended Durvasa Muni and thus the Cudarcan Cakra followed Durvasa all over the Universe AND NOBODIE COULD STOP THE CACKRA.NOT EVEN VISNU FOR Visnu explained:IM not free IM CONTROLLED BY THE LOVE OF MY DEVOTEES.So not until Durvasa Surrendered and ASK forgivness to the Devotee Anbarish Did Sudarsan cackra Stop.SudarssanCackra IN our lifes could (if im alloud to follow the thoughts within my mind) be concider within our lifes be some dissturbing situation that suddenly Occur and then keep followes us all the time Until we actually from within are sensitiv enought to hear the voice of the Lord explaining Why this problem is there and What to do and THUS DO IT.
GO(O)D Luck

[dasosmin]

Other thoughts that comme to my mind after reading your Words here.

So Super soul is guiding all living entities accoRding to their bent on desires
.Thus the super soul is guiding a snake where to find his food and a mosquito as well.We, JIVAS, are all blind in the material world and without The Lords Guidence and sanction we cannot do anything correct.THEREFOR the statements in SASTRA CORRECTLY states: NOT EVEN A BLADE OF GRASS move without the santcion of the Lord.
This is not just some kind of way to nicely glorify the Lords capacity in Somewhat special NICE Exageration; THIS IS A FACT.!!

So a real Pure devotee Is the true REPRESENTATIV of the Supersoul THUS HE IS UNDER THE complet loving Controll of the LORD.Thus Srila Prabupada Told the fisher man WHo wanted Him,Srila Prabhupada, to accept a Fish, to injoy it Himself.It didnt mean that Srila Prabhupada WAS wanting him to eat fish . It mean that Srila Prabhupada(as the pefect representativ of the Super Soul) Dealt with that soul according to What he was bent on wanting to do because super soul are fullfilling ALL our desires IN DUE COURSE OF ETERNAL TIME. OUR LIFE SPAN IS ETERNAL wether we live in the material world or the spiritual world.

So thus the Spiritual Master speaks from that Point of vue.Our lifes in material world is just a little moment in that eternal Life span So because the Spiritual master doesnt fixed the situation as we want now doesnt means Super Soul forgot us Or that The Spiritual Master is not awhere of the situations.Its JUst that Everything HAS its time and Place and circumstances according to the PERFECT PLAN OF THE LORD

So Do You think WHAT is the best treament of Your ego?The why having a spiritual training?Do You think Somebodie can ACT outside GODS PLAN FOR you???Dont You fully understand and believe in THAT NOTHING CAN happened without the sanction of the LORD.??Dont You believe in thatThe Lord is ALLMIGHTY AND NOTHING IS IMPOSSIBEL FOR HIM?Dont You Belive that AS SOON the LORD THINK SOMETHING it IMMIDIETLY happeneds??SO IF THE LORD WOULD think somethink else should happened in Your life,it would,BUT it didnt, because THe Lords Plan is perfectly unfolding AS THE LORDS WANTS and everybodie within That plan on this planet get that exactly situations they perfectly need and deserves to learn something more in the LORDS SCHOOL OF LIFE AT EVERY MOMENT in everybodies lifes eternally.

[prajalpaspeaker]

I can't believe how this thread has kept going! I have not read through all the pages but like other threads of a certain age, this one has gone through some changes.

My experience has told me that anything that becomes Institutionalized becomes full of Politics and Abuse.

That is why i understand that when Prabhupada was in the process of leaving, he turned everything over to the "leaders" and asked that he could be set free. His request was to go on Parikrama to Govardhana Hill on Govardhana Puja day, and in a Ox/Bullock Cart!

But even that was denied, maybe since he said that that Ox ride would "CURE" him. Tamal even repeated that Prabhupada had said that he would be cured by the Parikrama. But apparently Tamal and others did not want him to be cured, they wanted complete control of the "bricks and morter" part of the institution.

We also understand that the CURE also means the Cure for the Movement. CURE=Simple Living/High Thinking, Cow Protection.

Now we have so called "revival movements" that proclaim a revival or "Final Order" but to revive something that Prabhupada wanted to abandone is not a good revival.

So i was asking this question which is the title of the thread. But really i can see that all the "gurus" are a bunch of crap! Prabhupada though is not to be lumped in, he is the only one who can lead us, Hare Krishna devotees. And he wanted to revive the movement, that is why he gave so much importance on the "final order"= Let me go on Parikrama on Bullock Cart to Govardhana Hill on Govardhana Puja=Simple Living/High Thinking, Cow Protection. All of which is done best at home away from the Institutions.

[Auttareya]

A teacher is not judged by his title or position, but by the knowledge and understanding he is able to impart to others.

... and by his acts in connections with his preachings!

[dasosmin]

Sorry Kadren!!Who are you anyway Giving you the right to express Your self in this way accept your own glories??.

If I go to visit a person or meet somebodie on the street,I manytimes talk to them in a causel way, just to make them feel "I understand you and How you think"".That opens immidietly the hearts door for listening.I many times speak about things that is kind of up to date political or sport etc depending wich the person is, Who then feel seen by me.To feel that somebodie sees You is all WHAT THE MATERIAL WORLD IS ABOUT IS IT NOT SO???

Why is fashion there and why is fashion so powerfull ???

Srila Prabhupada Spooke with a Racer Driver(Nicke Lauda) about HIs driving for about half an hour(because thats was the terminologi of the world he was living within) and thus He(nicke L) felt at home and secure and felt he talked like with a friend.When Srila Prabhupada felt He was accepted enought He put the Question:Are you never afraind fo Death?And from there Srila Prabhupada entered in like a needle in his heart and out like a plow.After all JUst A MOMENTS association With a nice soul is fantastisk achievement for the bevildered souls.So even if a devotees speak "nonsens with a baby and thus make him to make some changes THATS fantastic.MAbe this baby talk make the baby feel so emotional comfortabel that he agree to eat some Maha Sweets that souls brought with Him.

SO you just dont NOW the back ground to the conversations.Srila Prabhupada said GODMORNING in the beginning in Bronx to "non devotees" and explained:If they friendly greet with a Godmorning back They have greeted a devotee and make spirituel advancement.SO THE basic point is to make all souls appriciate a devotee and thus they make advancement By thoose feelings.THE POWER of PURE LOVE is beyond filosofi and rules.Even A child understand the language OF REAL LOVE.SO THIS MOVEMENT IS SUPPOSED TO RUN BY THE POWER OF THE PUREST LOVE.It means after all Giving all respec to OTHERs AND expect no respect in return.


So if One is not abel to do something better Srila Prabhupada then explained :ONE HAS NO RIGHT TO complain.So why did Srila Prabhupada as THE ACARYA =TEACHING BY HIS ACTIONS HOW TO ACT showed us all by His life exampel Doing the THING IN HIS OWN wAY AS he understood WAS correct TO Carry out His Gurus desires AS HE UNDERSTOOD THEM.

Is not this ACTIONS MEANT TO TELL HIS FOLLOWERS how to DEAL WITH situations of diffrent oppinion, How to please the Spiritual Master, and also showing how to do it, By Keep on trying by thoose inspired good loving ideas one get, how to carry out the Gurus desired mission, That we ALL knows?

Is it not so that We all have diffrent rooles to play and thus an unlimited variety of approaches will be there to cover up the unlimeted ways conditioned souls and liberated souls are attracted to serve the Lord???
Do you think there is only one way of action that we all has to repeat eternally????.We all going dress int exakt the same way say the same thing all the time???Its all in dress and formulas?So thea robot can become th best ""devotee"".Where is the living personalism?How is it that everthing can be used in ISKCON but not beeing friend with people on the level they can accept friendships???Ofcourse this is definitly extremly dangerous FOR THOOSE WHO Still has desires and thus attraction for keep trying to injoy beeing controlled by the three moodes of matereial nature but even them if they are hnest?ly sincere in theiractions will be protected Bu Lord Gauranga.Ohterwice They might thus be drag down to previus bad habits.

So unless You are a Pure Devotee,You dont Know the reason really why a devotee do what He is doing.Not even if you are a pure devotee You might not nessaisry understand other devotees s If thats whats KRISHNA want.After all Even Lord Balaram was confused in Krihnas pastimes.

So before thinking your mission is to run around making rules everywhere Why not do as Srila Prabhupada .Start Your Own branch and follow The Saint Of Srila Prabhupadas own Deciple Jayananda, who made the The Ratha Yatra Carts For Lord Jaganth etc,WHo said I have no time to find faults in others activites Because I have sooo much service to do.He didnt concider drug addicts behavior because He had just one vision :to complete his service to srila Prabupada and thus accepted anybodie who gave him any hand and Also Fully understood That LOrd Jaganath showed His unlimited mercyfull nature to inspire thoose unfortunate street souls to serve Him.

So dive into Your service and try to establish Your Branche of Srila Prabhupadas TREE as the most powerfull instead.That Would Please Srila Prabhupada Immensly.THAT WOULD ACTUALLY BE TO FOLLOW SRILA PRABHUPADA.HE DID SO TO SHOW US.ACARYA SHOW BY HIS EXAMPEL!!!

Bt r a d S.d

[kadren]

Dear dasosmin

Sorry Kadren!!Who are you anyway Giving you the right to express Your self in this way accept your own glories??.

What do you want me to tell?

There are no glories about me, that I or others would have to accept.

For me it was an opportunity to speak with Hari, who (and also ISKCON) I left 20 years ago.

You know, if you have a mother, then this is somehow unchangeable (yes, I know this is bodily conception, but I speak only of this life now). The mother may be good, may be bad - but still she stays the mother: she is the one, who gives you birth, who feeds you somehow and so on.

So, similar, Hari stays my first guru: the one, how first bring me in connection with krishna-bhakti - and to the mercy of all my wellwishers, my mind and my hart are still attracted to this krishna-bhakti.

Because of this situation, Hari is an important part on my way. Twenty years ago - after and before leaving him and ISKCON - there was no possibility to speak personally of "why" and "how" is he doing something. Immediatly you were called a "demon" or simply in maya. To speak of me: I was forbidden to visit the tempel as long as Hari was Guru in ISKCON. His disciples even threaten with "get a hiding".

Well, maybe a forum was not the right place - but for me it was. For example the questions and thougths of Sacisuta Jaya Prada Dasa and Kaliya-krt das (and Haris reaction of course) were of great interest for me personnally. Because of the situation I described above for me there was something outstanding since 20 years.

I mean, not that I grumbling or chew always the same since 20 years

But there is some realtionship, that concerns my life. And out of that, I take the right to express me in the way, I did in this forum.

All the best

Kadren

[Hari]

Perhaps this thread is long, but I do not know if threads have a lifespan. They seem to go as long as they go. When people stop reading, others might stop writing and thus a topic dies a natural death as no longer important or interesting for the living.

I felt badly that dasosmin went after Kadren as he did. I still do not know why but perhaps he is mixing up "Guest," who is anonymously quoted, with Kadren? Now since guests cannot post on these forums, it is obvious that this person, guest, was removed from the forum’s membership. At any rate, I felt that Kadren has written all his texts with a reasonable and measured tone. Now I read his explanation that he was thrown out and perhaps harmed in some way. I felt doubly bad about that and deeply empathize with him. So many things were done in the name of righteous indignation and religious zeal but which lacked a basic understanding of cultured interpersonal relations. I do not think he has to defend himself as he certainly had and has the right to express his pain as he did and does. As Pamu reminded us, ventilating is a good thing and sometimes extremely therapeutic. For those who don’t understand what it means to ventilate, it refers to letting off steam to release the internal pressure that has built up when one feels wronged, offended, misunderstood, or otherwise maligned as a person. When our integrity is challenged in a way that weakens our fundamental self-respect, we suffer.

There is not much I can say that will help repair the damage done by excessive energy borne of fanaticism. I just pray it does not happen again anywhere near me. I am very impressed by Kadren and thank him for sharing his feelings with us as he does.

[Auttareya]

Perhaps this thread is long, but I do not know if threads have a lifespan. They seem to go as long as they go. When people stop reading, others might stop writing and thus a topic dies a natural death as no longer important or interesting for the living.

I felt badly that dasosmin went after Kadren as he did. I still do not know why but perhaps he is mixing up "Guest," who is anonymously quoted, with Kadren? Now since guests cannot post on these forums, it is obvious that this person, guest, was removed from the forum’s membership. At any rate, I felt that Kadren has written all his texts with a reasonable and measured tone. Now I read his explanation that he was thrown out and perhaps harmed in some way. I felt doubly bad about that and deeply empathize with him. So many things were done in the name of righteous indignation and religious zeal but which lacked a basic understanding of cultured interpersonal relations. I do not think he has to defend himself as he certainly had and has the right to express his pain as he did and does. As Pamu reminded us, ventilating is a good thing and sometimes extremely therapeutic. For those who don’t understand what it means to ventilate, it refers to letting off steam to release the internal pressure that has built up when one feels wronged, offended, misunderstood, or otherwise maligned as a person. When our integrity is challenged in a way that weakens our fundamental self-respect, we suffer.

There is not much I can say that will help repair the damage done by excessive energy borne of fanaticism. I just pray it does not happen again anywhere near me. I am very impressed by Kadren and thank him for sharing his feelings with us as he does.

There is one fundamental point, that wolud act as medicine for everybody. Simply please take under your deep consideration the word:

RESPONSIBILITY

[harsi]

Hari wrote:

"Perhaps this thread is long, but I do not know if threads have a lifespan. They seem to go as long as they go. When people stop reading, others might stop writing and thus a topic dies a natural death as no longer important or interesting for the living."

I wonder if this is not also worth considering in the context of what "Prabhupada said". Taking into consideration that he made his statements in a diferent time, place and circumstances which may have changed considering where we are now, and what realizations we have made in our own life. What do you think?

[aroma108]

I´m sorry, but I don´t find Hari´s response to ssjp dasa a symptom of humuor. Just the usual "good old" sarcastic attitude which was so common (and still is) in Iskcon authorities when they are faced with questions they don´t wish to discuss.

[harsi]

"ISKCON authorities" what a strange word! I never really understood all this people who spoke in the way you do about the persons who were somehow put in the situations to decide something in ISKCON, or who blamed or continue to blame someone for this or that "injustice" or "authoritative decision" which happened or affected them personnaly while they were living and associating with this persons and their apparent insufficiencies of caracter in that particular society. I never really viewed them as "authorities" in the way you do rather as normal people or "partners" of my spiritual life. A spiritual forerunner, or spiritual companion entitled to the same rights and duties on this our common spiritual quest, spiritual discovery, or "Krishna consciousness" as it was commonly called and understood in that society.

After all I joint this so called Hare Krishna Movement in the 1980er years and engaged myself therein for more than 20 years on my own desire and out of my own conviction, hopefully you also. No one forced me or anyone of us in a kind of harsh "authoritarian way" to do this, or anything which we didn't wanted to do out of our own desire or wish to "advance" or "progress" or "become purified" on this our common spiritual path or that what I or anyone of us may have understood in this direction. I personally wanted to discover my spiritual self and my relation with the Supreme Godhead and wanted to be in the association of similar minded people. Before I joint the devotees on their Nrsimhadeva farm community in the Bavarian Forest, (Photos) I had my own so called Bhakti Yoga Center in Nuremberg (the next B.Y. Center is still on the internet although its closed by now) where our small congregation of spiritually-minded people were associating together and organized our own Sunday feasts every now and then.

Hari who at that time was known as Harikesa Swami has visited us also on a saturday, I was organizing for him a public lecture at the Amerika Haus here in Nuremberg. He was sleeping that night in his mobile van which his driver parked in the courtyard of the house of my parents, which were at that time at a vacation in Hungary. The next morning he gave a lecture to the many devotees who were travelling with him and the people from our local community in the party cellar of the house. I remember that morning I was piking in the garden of the house some roses to make a flower garland, but that night it was raining a little and the flowers were all somehow wet, so I took the hair-dryer and dried them all up but somehow when Kaumodaki, (Christiane Rücker, a well-known German movie actress who with Georg Thomala were Harikesa Swami's more prominent German disciples) offered him our flower garland and put it around his neck many rose petals were slowly falling down. Smilingly he still gave an interesting lecture I still remember today. Later on that sunday I acompanied him and the other devotees with my car, we were travelling close to the city of Heilbronn where he was invited by a leader of an alternative community to give a lecture about community living and ecological farming at a beautiful castle, Burg Hohenfels. Now I may see many things differently but thats also due to getting a little older and hopefully somehow wiser too.

[Nanda-grama]

Honestly, I don't understand this topic and I interest it not very much, but I read your last post, Harsi, and also I looked photos of temples and of Prabhupada in other your topic, and I think that ISSCON's people very like this way of life. When there are beautiful buildings around, many flowers, nice music, all people smile, all speak only absolute truth( because if I am a fool, I can repeat words of my spiritual master, but it is the absolute truth without doubt) . This condition when a man is sure that he lives right life, he knows what he will do tomorrow ( and if he doesn't know- his spiritual master will tell him ), he has all guarantees ( in this life and after his death), generally he already knows all about all (if I don't know something I should simply find the necessary book of Prabhupada)-is very comfortable, defended, pleasant condition. Always there is somebody whom I can offer a garland,can bow or wash his feet, even if I don't know this man good( but I don't interest it very much , he is simply my spiritual master). All is very well. But now I find that ONLY when I left ISSCON I could know myself really, I felt real connection with Divine, I began to assotiate really with this person who was my spiritual master, I sow life around me. For example, I lived in S-Peterburg's temple almost 2 years, but now I remember only my sankirtana from that time, I don't remember this town, this people. It was like a sleep. Now I arrive in S-Peterburg, I feel this special atmosphere, this energy and charm of the town. It is simply an example. I want to say that this grandiose and wonderful sistem is like a sleep, like a way of preserving of consciousness.

[prajalpaspeaker]

After years of not remembering this site, i am pleased to see that my thread is still going more than 4 years later.

[harsi]

After years of not remembering this site...

Its interesting 'Prajalpaspeaker' on your web site you mention a lot of informations and show a lot of photos and artifacts from the Hindu religious and cultural beliefs but you never mention the word "Hindu" or when you converted and became yourself a devout Hindu. What is your intention or logic behind it? This seems to me like someone who provides people with a lot of information about the Christian faith but never mentions the word "Christ" therein. Of course you mention the word 'Vedic", a time and period of the Hindu faith, culture and way of life which is long gone like the past time and period mentiond in the Old Testament of the Christian Bible.

Related:

- Hindu community Berlin: www.hindu-gemeinde.de