Harimedia Forum

Dear Gaura!

I am a little bit astonished.

This forum titels: "Good old Days - This is the proper place for all texts concerning Hari's former life".

So, is it not quite normal, that also former disciples, who made their experiences with Hari, will write here? Maybe they made another experience, than that Hari tried to "change the things in ISKCON from inside", and therefor have a good reason to ask: "So do you think you have nothing to apologyze for?"

What do Hari is wonderful help for lot of people here. And who don't like it - is free to go to billion other sites in the huge ocean of internet.

Yes, I agree.

But then you should not have a forum for "Good old Days - This is the proper place for all texts concerning Hari's former life".

And sorry, I cannot resist to say: Then you should add at least: "Like in good old days. Only "Yes-men" are welcome."

Beside of this: I am thankful for what I get from Hari in ISKCON. My experiences with him are part of the person, I am now. And I do not mean it in an ambiguity way: There happens really painful, wrong and exploiting things (and I do not think, that Hari had nothing to do with that). But there were also a lot of good things and good intentions (and Hari was also part of this). I learnt from both - so I have nothing to accuse.

But there must also be the freedom to say, what was happen (more generally) or what was happen to someone in these "good old days", without be accused: "Oh, you are really not polite ..." or responded with so called "humor" (I did not see any humor - I did see a lot of sarcasm).

Without that freedom in the forum "Good old Days .." I can only say: "Nothing new in the west".

All the best

Kadren

Quote:

With your limited capacity of brain, you can not understand the acts of krishna...

Your prichings are just empty, sentimental bla-bla for thoese who could not be a pure devoties and have droped down but can not addmit it to them selves, as you can not. It is just a way to put some medicine on a wound but it whant help dear Harikesa. you can lie, and tell cheap stories to atract the so called spiritualists and spiritualy interested and spiritualy advanced people, but this is just a crazy delusion of the material world (as you have nicely said to me once).

Your words are useless in the respect of real spiritual advancement.

end of quote.
---------------------------------
Do you think is it normal to go to somebody's house and tell whatever (I said it soft-not polite) speech you want toward that person. And if somebody says dear friend if you don't like the owner of the house or what he is doing maybe you shouldn't go to that house at first place. And after hearing that others will say oy!! there is no freedom!!, of course that is what happening in this unfair world!!!!!
Do you think all this scenario is Ok? What if somebody come to your home and tell all this to you at your home.

And besides that in all forums it is said that if you want to make a post in the forum first you have to make a research and see is there the answer to your question. This kind of questions already were made a lot of times and Hari has answered to all these questions. If all new comers will start with this question it will be not interesting for others to read the same questions over and over again, everyday, especially when these question makers becoming harsher and harsher.


With best regards.

Dear Gaura

Gaura wrote: Do you think is it normal to go to somebody's house and tell whatever (I said it soft-not polite) speech you want toward that person.

Yes, your objection is correct.

Anyhow - this is a very special situation. Because also the experiences of the old days were "not normal".

Gaura wrote: And if somebody says dear friend if you don't like the owner of the house or what he is doing maybe you shouldn't go to that house at first place.

Hmmm ... maybe it would be consistent to say: "I startet a new life. In this forum you are invited to share."

Otherwise if you invite not only in your house, but also invite to speak about the good old days, then I can assure you, that a lot of people will not speak very polite about the experiences of this time.

Gaura wrote:Do you think all this scenario is Ok?

No, this scenario is not o.k. But there is a reason. And this reason lies in the past. So, you (or the owner of the house) decide: to speak about this past, or to be silent or leave it behind.

Gaura wrote: first you have to make a research and see is there the answer to your question. This kind of questions already were made a lot of times and Hari has answered to all these questions.

In this point, I do not agree! There were not already a lot of questions about, and the explanations I read, were not, what I personally experienced in these old days.

All the best

Kadren

kadren wrote: In this point, I do not agree! There were not already a lot of questions about,

It's interesting how many times this question should be wrote that it would be considered "a lot of"?

I would like to say that I'm not the owner of this house. This house was made by Hari to help people to evolve on their path, I suppose.

In my personal realization by digging up the past days we becoming as ghost, unable to release the past and thus remaining in the same point of evolution. I think we have to look at present who is who trying to see we like the persons on their qualities and their dids at present, not judging out of past activities.

I prefer to squeeze out all I can from the present situation, present time, present opportunities to become a bit closer to the reality. But by digging up the past we'll louse the most valuable things - the reality and the souls helping us to evaluate.

Dear Gaura

Gaura wrote:I think we have to look at present who is who trying to see we like the persons on their qualities and their dids at present, not judging out of past activities.

No problem.

But then close the "good old days" Forum - this would be more honest - at least in my eyes.

All the best

Kadren

I think the good old days forum needs to stay open. And I do not say this for the entertainment value that it certainly may have, but for more important reasons. There will always be a revolving door of ex-ISKCON people, and some may come here to see what is going on. It is valid that they ask some questions, and sometimes those questions may come off as impolite.

But I'm sure some may want to check out the vibe here. That's what I did, and am doing.

I see a great deal of value in this forum, including these "old days" discussions. Ultimately it is up to ourselves and of course Hari himself to what degree we or he is prepared to churn memories and experiences. The real value manifests when we all understand why we did what we did and take our responsibility and accept our own and others imperfections in all of that. Another great value is in understanding how all of this was, is and will be an integral part of the path we have choosen for ourselves. Sometimes people rush too much and hurry from one situation to another in order to forget something unpleasant or just to experience something new. Stop and smell the flowers, even the not so pleasant odors.
After all, who does not sometimes remember ones childhood friends and things that happened back then? No harm in that.
ps. sometimes I wonder though, how much of our interest in the happenings of Isckonian history is just pure voyerism?

I have read these texts in this thread. It is impossible to comment on all these things and even harder to come up with a generalized statement that covers everything. I could say nothing, make a brief statement or try to explain something. Here is my attempt to say something.

I did not want to allow a discussion about my time in ISKCON as I felt it would be confusing and needlessly agitating. There are many web sites dedicated to these topics which gleefully write anything and everything about anybody. As the internet is a free world, there is nothing I can do about that. Harimedia.net was meant to be a place where everyone who wished to could interact with me as I am and find out for themselves who I am and if I have anything of value to offer others. All that counts is the present, yet there are many who live bound by the past and are therefore prisoners of it. One of the characteristics of such prisoners is they refuse to let anyone else live in the present and insist that the past rules. As time goes by it gets harder and harder to establish the facts of the past. Indeed, it is even hard to do it at the time of the events! I did not want to create a site where the past rules as this is an artificial and destructive concept. Harimedia.net is a place where the present rules and will continue to rule.

I reluctantly read the posts of those who live in the past and wonder how to respond. Perhaps there is a need to allow such a discussion within this site since, after all, I am the center of the controversy and what better place to attempt to heal the pain of the past and thus empower the present than a place where I also feel comfortable?

I do not feel comfortable sharing with other sites. I do not wish to name sites which are not objective and are pushing their own agenda yet presenting that agenda as unbiased reportage. Aware people know that the media presents only what sells or gets attention for it is not ultimately concerned with truth neither does it have the qualification to determine what is true and what is false. Determining what is the truth of a situation is very hard to do and even were two people to participate in the same event they could report it in two different ways especially when matters of opinion are involved. This is why intelligent people have established a very complex system of justice. The hardest part in any dispute is to determine the facts of a case for simply accepting everyone’s statements as true is not sufficient. Some trials take years and are often quite complex. To demonstrate how ISKCON spin off organizations have distorted the past by expressing their and other’s beliefs as true I would have to name names, make direct accusations and discuss each and every detail of what they said happened and why. I see no reason to do this since ultimately everyone believes what they wish to believe. Still, since I am a person with feelings I shall attempt to express what I can without becoming one of those who distort reality for their own sake. I have better things to do with my life than waste time responding to everything anyone throws into the ether.

Obviously I caused much pain by my departure and my anger at the society I gave so much of myself to for so long. To clarify my position on exactly how I felt about that, I wrote the following letter to the GBC which can be seen by following this link:

http://www.vnn.org/europe/EU9812/EU09-2638.html

There are other articles in this organization’s site which are expressions of the opinions of others. Since kk has cited "Harikesa Prabhu, Guide Us" and since he accepts to some extent what is stated there, perhaps even totally, I suppose someone might wish me to say something about these statements. In truth it is very hard to reply to something that is so one-sided and hysterical. Obviously this letter was not written by one of my disciples but rather was orchestrated from behind the scenes by those who wished to paint me black. Of course, painting a black image of another is easy to do, especially when those who read this have no idea of what happened. To be quite frank the author also has little idea of what really happened and why since the author was personally not there and took his ‘facts’ from others who were upset at the time. There were those who knew what really happened, but they saw no purpose to state different facts as they also did not like me after I left ISKCON. I can say that what was written was not as it was presented and when I initially read this twisted expression of personal frustration in 1998 I was disgusted that such distortions were accepted as truth.

Do you have any idea how much energy is involved in disputing such ideas? There are years of history stated in a barrage of accusations. Speaking about all that went on at the time would take months and I did not have the strength neither the desire to do it. After all, even if I showed what really happened (according to my point of view) someone else would come along and say it was not so. And again, it would boil down to a confusing barrage of facts and counter facts expressed with great passion which ultimately have no purpose other than to be the ammunition for a fight. As I did not wish to engage myself in such a useless exchange then I will not do it now. Those who wrote that text have already been personally disgraced by the same movement. There is balanced justice in the universe and I am more inclined to let that totally unbiased and fair system determine what should be done. I have no desire that anyone suffer neither do I wish to punish anyone. When the universe makes corrections it does it in a way that is beneficial to all. I think more faith in God is required by the spiritual community.

I cannot understand the point of those who come into these forums to express their frustration. Their statements follow the line of, "You were bad then. You did bad things. You hurt people and cheated everyone. You do not feel at all bad about that and you have the audacity to continue presenting yourself as someone who knows something. I would have never followed you if I knew all these things. I would have kicked you away long ago. You cheated me. You caused me pain. You should suffer. You should read these words and feel very badly. I will always feel pain. I will continue to harbor resentment and anger. Nothing can repair all the damage you did to me. Why oh why did this happen to me?"

OK, we read this over and over again and we get the point. Yes, you feel like that. I can reply to each text by saying, "No this was not so, it was really like this," or "Yes, it was something like that but not the way it was stated," or "I did not steal anything, and no I did not do those horrible things that were stated about me." I can even write about what a nice and helpful person I really am. There are those who would believe me because they believe me now. There are those who would not believe me since they do not believe me now. There are those who would say, "What is the use of wasting so much time on topics which have no relevance or value in our lives at present?" Addressing the generic complaints of the writers would not benefit them and would take a lot of time that I would rather spend trying to be of service.

After all, isn’t the point that we should be of service? Do I lose my qualification to be of service because I left a position in a movement? Certainly according to the more fanatical opinions of some I lost my qualification to be of service in ISKCON but the movement is a very small part of the world and no longer a part of my world, so this partial disqualification does not affect my capacity to be of service in some small way to the rest of the world. After all, the internet is free and you are free to take what you like or not. It is even so free that I am allowing these negative texts (some are in the form of a rant or rave) in my own web site! I am not doing this because I am a masochist, far from it for I do not enjoy this in any way. I am doing this because being of service often means accepting situations that are sent to you rather than having the luxury of dictating to the universe what you shall offer and when. Maybe at one point I will put an end to this forum? I cannot say.

I do not accept that I have nothing to offer. By accepting that idea I would be defeated in life and would be nothing but lifeless matter. Each person has much they can offer others in service and I am no exception just because I disappointed some in some way. I am not proud of disappointing people; neither do I insist that anything I said in 1998 represents what I am now, although that letter linked above still represents my feelings towards the situation quite well. It seems it took me those five months to come to some peace within myself about how I felt about the whole thing. Considering the enormous uproar in my life, five months is not too long a time to calm down and present things properly.

Sure there are records of previous conversations, but you do not know the background history of these discussions. And again, explaining them to you would just reinforce the past, even if that past were more favorable to me than the one you, kk (who represents probably hundreds others who do not have the courage to write in this forum so let’s not get on his or her case!) have presented. I look at some of those statements and the unedited and raw way they appear and say, "Oh man that looks mighty bad to me too!" However, I look at the "Guide Us" article and feel the exact same way I felt when I read it the first time, "Whoever wrote this has a lot of hate in their heart which has so blinded their vision that their hate has become their reality. I doubt anything I would say could change it just as nothing I said to that person before ever changed anything he thought. But that is the nature of that person and the task of his life is to work it out within himself."

Frankly speaking, I could write a similar diatribe about any member of ISKCON. It takes imagination, hatred, righteous indignation which allows one to twist reality to fulfill some purpose which one thinks higher, and a perverse sense that such statements could actually help others. Remember, the bigger the lie the more inclined others are to accept it. Anything published in the media is a candidate for acceptance. But do not then write to me and say, "Ok, then tell us what really happened?" Sorry, it is too complex and too old. Let it lie.

What if some of the problems you find so horrifying were related to me having to shoulder a burden far too great for me to bear? What if the positions thrown upon me were contradictory to my energy, my heart and my personality? What if the sacrifice I thought I had to make ended up sacrificing me? Maybe we should examine the situation in another way?

Before I left the movement, I dared to look deeply within ISKCON and within myself to find the root causes of the diseased manifestations that appeared there. I stated what they were. I do not hate the sources of the causes neither do I hate those who manifested the symptoms which everyone suffered from for I know that the cause and effect are linked. Pointing a finger of blame doesn’t resolve anything. I know that the cause is an effect linked to some remote cause. Such a chain of cause and effect goes back in time. Who is to be blamed and who is to set the blame? I blamed myself some time for following such a system, but after a while I realized that it was something I needed to go through to understand what I now understand. I do not lament any experience of the past neither do I hate it or myself. It was what happened. I can honestly say that I always, without exception, did what I thought was right at the time I did it. I know what I am and what I am not and I am not what was presented to you as the truth. I was not always successful in doing things that everyone liked but I certainly tried hard. More than this is not possible for anyone. This is the only criterion that means anything in the long run.

Isn’t that interesting? I mean, we can dispute our understanding of the events of the past, but all that really counts is why we did what we did. I did things considering the best of all people involved, considering what I was supposed to do and what was right. Sometimes I also did things considering what was right for me. But at all times my choices were based on what I thought was best at the time the choice had to be made. Hind-sight is certainly 20-20 and those who look backwards always have perfect vision. But those who were living at that time were in the midst of raging seas and fearful storms; doing things in a way that would please everyone was not possible. It is easy to judge what others have done but it is very hard to make the right choices in the present. This fact will never change. My present choice is to be of service now without the encumbrances of the past or being restricted to following what others say is right or want done. Yet, because you wish to express yourself as you have done I suppose I am again being directed by your desires even though I see little use to defend myself. I suppose this indicates that being of service also means exposing yourself to the idiosyncrasies of fate.

My teacher says that it is simple.

People who put themselves up as authorities in spiritual matters are a block to self awareness. A block to the finding out things on our own.

[text deleted by admin as unacceptable for this site -- I will not allow statements that flame ISKCON or any person involved in it. There are plenty of other places to do that in. I am doing this out of respect for all persons. This is the first warning not to post flames against any person or organization on this site.]

After being in a religion of myth for so long, one wants to be a leader or an authority over others. It makes them feel like they have not wasted their lives. They can not accept the fact that they have wasted time on myth and not on reality. The easy way is to try to be something they are not....and that is some kind of authority.

Dear Hari

It is a strange thing, to write you directly after more then twenty years.

It was not my attention to blame you for the past. Already some years ago, when I saw for the first time the photo of you and your wife in the internet, I thought by myself: "I never saw him with such a happy face." And there was no feeling: "No, I do not like, that he is happy! No, he should suffer, and so on ...".

No. To be honest: Even here in this forum, it was only because of my curiosity, what you are doing now (in the present).

When I saw the thread "good old days" and "discussion about Haris former life", then first I thougth: "Wow, for this you must have courage." But then I saw how you want to explain your position and doings in this time. At this point I felt the necessary to say: "NO. Not in this way - again!"

Do not invite to discuss about these things, if in the same time you say: "All the guys who blame me for the past, are only frustrated, because I leave ISKCON and I used harsh words. They are only bound at the past like prisoners". This is only bad rhetorical stuff - like in the good old days, when somebody said some critical things, then you used to say: "Yes, poor guy. He is only envy and in maya".

My problem is not, that you leave ISKCON or that you are not perfect or made also faults in the past or that I do not share your meditations or point of view in your present life.

Acutally my problem is, that for me to a certain degree it is not a question of "to belive" what was happen in past or what is written in the article "Guide us". Not even a question of "establish the truth". No, because I have the personal experience about quite a lot of things of this past, my only problem is: You start your new life with a big lie about your past - and in the same time about the past of thousands of your former disciples!

This can not be honest and has a lot to to with the "right choices in the present".

Best wishes

Kadren

Dear Kadren

I did not invite anyone to discuss such topics in this website. I created this forum when some started posting texts relating to ISKCON topics. A few persons said I should delete them but I decided to create this forum instead. It was not meant as an invitation; rather, it was a place to put texts that were not of interest to all to make it easy for the uninterested to avoid them.

My comments were not specifically aimed at you, rather they were a reply to kk. I did not mean to lump you in and I am sorry I did not aim my comment about ventiliating anger to specific persons. Please forgive my error.

I am not sure how you have come to the conclusion that I started my 'new life' with a big lie about my past? Can you explain which particular lie you are referring to? I sincerely did not mean to offend the thousands of former disciples by any statements made for I was simply referring to those who were commenting here.

I never said "all the guys who blame me for the past are only frustrated." What I said was that those who are using this forum for ventilating about their frustrations fit very well into the category of comments I stated. I know that many blame me for many things. I do not know how to reply to them, neither do I see any use to do it. I know they have felt pain and that what I did was part of that pain. I stated that at the start of my reply. Perhaps you are being a bit too sensitive in your response? That is also alright and I understand it. My real point is that there are other places where those who are frustrated and angry can ventilate their heat but this forum is an attempt to heal.

The idea that I have a position is incorrect as there is none. The idea that I am presenting myself as an authority is simply a product of the person who perceives this. The words position and authority were important in ISKCON but they are not important here. As this is my site then certainly I will be the main player in it. I have some knowledge and if someone finds it useful then good and if not then fine too. I never said or implied I was an authority on anything. I have stated again and again that I am sharing my experiences and realizations in an attempt to be of service. I see no reason to stop that.

You have stated you do not like my explanations. That is your opinion and you have a right to feel like that. I am sorry I did not meet your expectations. If you were to explain yourself in more detail it might help me understand your point and perhaps lead me to a transformation. Mere statements offered in passing without substance have little value to me.

When someone says that I have dealt with a topic previously, they usually mean in one of the hundreds of lectures within the past 7 years since I left. Most of these topics have been extensively addressed somewhere. Please remember that this site has a rather mixed membership. The Russian members have been with me throughout the changes and have followed the evolution of thought and have heard the explanations. When you say there has been no explanation since you did not read it in these forums they might object since these forums are a small fraction of the total discussion.

But again, what you have said is not a problem and I do not mind it. That you do not like my reply is also not a problem as I see no point in trying to convince you of anything. I only reply when I feel I should. My motive is to promote healing. If I succeed I am happy and if I fail I am not happy.

Dear Hari

Hari wrote:I did not invite anyone to discuss such topics in this website. I created this forum when some started posting texts relating to ISKCON topics. A few persons said I should delete them but I decided to create this forum instead. It was not meant as an invitation; rather, it was a place to put texts that were not of interest to all to make it easy for the uninterested to avoid them.

I see. This explanation is for he understanding of the forum important. I would somehow add it on the top, not only in the middle of a thread.

Hari wrote:I am not sure how you have come to the conclusion that I started my 'new life' with a big lie about my past? Can you explain which particular lie you are referring to?

Without going in details, only one personal example, that was a general experience at this time.
Today you say about your past, that you tried to change the things from within.
I can only speak from the late 70ies and the 80ies, and at this time, your doing was quite opposite. It was still the zonal-era and a lot of your disciples burned out, because of heavy mental pressure (you filled them with fear, telling them: "žYou will go to the hellish planets, if you not accept this and that" or you preached about the 3 World-war, that stand next to the door and so on).

If sombebody tried to change or even to question about what was going on, you forced him to surrender (and be silent) or leave (even before they had given all what they had to the tempel).

O.k. that is passed. I can see, that now you say: "ž ... But I try to do so by sharing the means, the path, the experiences that I have had with others but this time without requiring anything of anyone. No demands, no expectations, no rules, no structure, no restrictions, no bondage, no guilt, no fear, no judgment, no condemnation, no sectarianism, no sects, no politics, no fighting with others to be something or get somewhere and no economic entanglement."

Neverless one point that people speak about your past is for sure, that they wonder about your motives or honesty (as somebody wrote: you are not born yesterday). For this they should believe or at least give you some credit, but that is for a lot of people who know the past not so easy ("žfrom Saulus to Paulus", we say in german). Maybe, this is actually their problem, but you have to live with that.

Beside of this, could it be that there rests a personal responsibility for the pain and even the suizide of some of your former disciples, far beyond the discussions about structures in ISKCON, Gurus and so on?
Can it be honest to start a new life, without taking this personal responsibility (also for the own personal wrong doings and personel selfishness) and instead of this speak of: "žI tried to change, but they did not want to listen".

Yes, maybe I am a little bit too sensitive in this topic, particularly to the term "žGOOD old days".

All the best

Kadren

Kadren wrote:

"Beside of this, could it be that there rests a personal responsibility for the pain and even the suizide of some of your former disciples, far beyond the discussions about structures in ISKCON, Gurus and so on? "

Do you really believe that anyone has the power to make another person commit suicide? Anyone who would take their own life has serious psychological issues; if they took their own life while is ISKCON (or anywhere else), it's not the fault of ISKCON, their guru or anyone else. Unfortunately, it's their choice, due to illness.

It's highly irresponsible of you to try to pin that blame on Hari, or any other person or institution. You're giving far too much power to any one person or thing, in this regard.

Please don't object to the forum title "good" old days. It seems very appropriate for a certain time and place. What do you think it was? Back in simpler times, it was a bunch of wide-eyed boys and girls who really saw a beautiful thing going on. If you or I wound up saddled with huge responsibilities what would we do? God only knows. I'm not even going to pretend that I know. Remember one thing: EVERYBODY INCLUDING YOU talked the "party line" whether they did it at a Sunday feast or selling books on the street.

I don't see any sense in bombarding this topic with retelling the tales of abuse and greed. It happened, we were ALL part of it (that's right!). If one is to blame, we're all to blame. Most of the anger directed toward ISKCON or it's former members, is self-hatred directed outwards. I know, I was there. The answer is not in blaming others, can I recommend a good therapist?

GP

My teacher says that he packed his bag and walked away from the hare krishna temple one day. The big cheese gbc came running out after him, shouting and waving his arms all around, so upset to see my teacher leave. But my teacher just told the gbc creep to shove it and walked away into freedom. He had taken enough guff from people (the leaders) who he knew to be the most poorly qualified to be in those positions of leadership. Mere hippys and druggies.