Since this board is both for questions for Hari and general discussion, I'd like to address the thread started by someone earlier. I'm sure Hari can defend himself (if he feels the need), but here's my take....
To apologize means that you committed some kind of wrong. If a part of the Whole decides to leave a man-made institution, does the Whole suffer?
A story I once heard....
Mahatma Gandi's non-violence group had planned a huge rally. Several thousands people agreed to attend this show of solidarity. Very shortly before this was to take place, Gandhi was made aware that a very violent and dangerous situation would occur at this rally. At the last moment, he called it off. Some followers questioned him: "You promised to hold this rally, gave your word to so many people--and now you have called it off. Is this not inconsistent?" Gandhi answered like "I am not dedicated to promises, I am dedicated to Truth. I must follow my Truth, even if it seems inconsistent to others."
As I said, Hari is more than capable to respond for himself. This is my opinion, and it is open for discussion and comment (by Hari or others).
What ABOUT the Vaishnavas?
What ABOUT the Vaishnavas?
What we do in life, echoes in Eternity
-
Radha Madhava das
Simplicity
Dear Gauri das Pandit,
please accept my respects.
You have written that Hari can defend himself.
Please know that i have not attacked him in any way and my question that i have put in this Forum is not meant to offend anyone.
I have asked him a simple question. You have written about Hari defending himself, man-made institutions and a story about Gandhi.
In my view however, all that has no relation to my post.
I like the atmosphere in this Forum and i hope that all who participate continue with that mood of friendship and respect.
yours,
Radha Madhava das
please accept my respects.
You have written that Hari can defend himself.
Please know that i have not attacked him in any way and my question that i have put in this Forum is not meant to offend anyone.
I have asked him a simple question. You have written about Hari defending himself, man-made institutions and a story about Gandhi.
In my view however, all that has no relation to my post.
I like the atmosphere in this Forum and i hope that all who participate continue with that mood of friendship and respect.
yours,
Radha Madhava das
simplicity
Dear Radha Madhava das,
Please accept my respects, as well.
Before I begin, just want to say that I'm not trying to be defensive or argumentative at all. I left ISKCON around 1977 or so, and I did not keep up on it's politics or issues. I'm assuming that the Vaisnavas you mentioned feel that Hari owes an apology....
I've only been accessing this site for a few weeks now. My impression is that Hari was an ISKCON guru who decided to be true to himself, and leave the institution. He himself has said that he has been villified for his decision. That's why I related the Gandhi story. Specifically, did Hari do something against the Vaisnavas you mentioned? Because what crime is it to follow your own truth?
I enjoy the mood of this forum also, not looking to be harsh with anyone. Hope we can continue nicely. BTW, my name is Garuda Pandit das, not Gauri das Pandit.
Kind regards,
GP
Please accept my respects, as well.
Before I begin, just want to say that I'm not trying to be defensive or argumentative at all. I left ISKCON around 1977 or so, and I did not keep up on it's politics or issues. I'm assuming that the Vaisnavas you mentioned feel that Hari owes an apology....
I've only been accessing this site for a few weeks now. My impression is that Hari was an ISKCON guru who decided to be true to himself, and leave the institution. He himself has said that he has been villified for his decision. That's why I related the Gandhi story. Specifically, did Hari do something against the Vaisnavas you mentioned? Because what crime is it to follow your own truth?
I enjoy the mood of this forum also, not looking to be harsh with anyone. Hope we can continue nicely. BTW, my name is Garuda Pandit das, not Gauri das Pandit.
Kind regards,
GP
What we do in life, echoes in Eternity
Radha Madhava das Guest
PostPosted: 03 Jun 2005 10:51 pm Post subject: And the Vaisnavas?
Dear Hari,
please accept my respects.
You have send out your apologies to many of your "ex-disciples" and some god-brothers in the last few years, that was very nice from you. How about the great Vaishnavas on earth? Did you ever publicly apologize to Srila Gour Govinda Maharaja and his disciples, to Srila Narayana Maharaja and his disciples, to Srila Bhaktipromode Puri Goswami and his disciples, to Srila Sridhara Maharaja and his disciples?
Thanks for taking time,
Radha Madhava das
I moved the question to keep order in the forums
It becomes messy when topics are mixed in multiple texts in the forums.
I appreciate very much Garuda Pandit's posts which address the submission given above.
To address the post directly: I am not sure what 'apologies' you refer to. It is my nature to apologize if I inadvertently hurt someone, as I do not wish to consciously cause others pain needlessly. Sometimes taking a radical stance is required and although I am not happy to do it, I will if needed.
I have never apologized for leaving ISKCON. I feel it was a very good thing for me to do, not only for me, but for others. I am definitely sorry that while still in ISKCON or even after leaving it, I could not do more for the sake of the abused and severely scarred children, exploited women, families, and other affected individuals, but the situation was far beyond my capacity at that time and I saw little hope in continuing the attempt. I am also not happy that people felt internal pain due to my departure but considering the nature of ISKCON there is no clean way to walk away from it. Sometimes simply walking away is the optimal move to make.
I have taken responsibility for sharing what I understand with those who were or are devotees to assist them to make sense of their own lives and to find the internal respect, peace and integrity that is their right.
I have tried to explain to those few who were interested why things happened as they did and some listened and accepted while others did not.
But to address your post directly, no, I did not apologize to any of the personalities listed by you. And although some of the personalities you listed have said or done things which you, if you knew, would fall into the category of actions which you might feel they should apologize for, I see no reason to ask them to do so. But then again, maybe you embrace a belief system which applauds their modes of action? We all see things relative to our understanding which makes conformity to a single view impossible.
Except for Gaura Govinda Goswami, I do not personally know the others.
I knew Gaura Govinda Goswami from the day he joined ISKCON. Out of appreciation for him, I paid for the printing of most of his books, I fought in the GBC for him to be a guru, and I tried in vain to get him to understand the implications of the actions of his disciples when they were considered to be a disturbance in temples in Europe. I would have so loved to just embrace the Gaura Govinda I knew as a kind and cultured sadhu before he died. Unfortunately for me, his transformation was so complete I lost contact with him and all feelings for him.
It is illustrative to see you request an apology rather than invite me to partake of the association of those who you obviously admire. I can only guess why you are doing this. You say you like the mood of these forums, yet your post has nothing to do with the topics that are there. I have seen that some feel I am the cause of the pain they felt in ISKCON or related organizations, or the cause of the crisis they are in now, or even more interesting, that their lives are somehow incomplete unless I publically and continually whip myself for all my sins and beg for forgiveness. Pardon me for wondering about this, but I rarely see anyone present these issues without a manifestation of their conviction that they are right, they have the most proper understanding, they are clear and devoted, and they shall attempt to deliver the fallen deviants from the ignorance that covers them. These attempts seem to be an unfortunate manifestation of insecurity and a lack of respect for others and the choices they make. This reflects on their lack of confidence and connection to their own hearts made more complex by their accepting a restricted view of reality which does not allow deep questioning and change.
I do not appreciate your post. However, I do appreciate Garuda Pandit's reply to you and therefore I have responded.
I appreciate very much Garuda Pandit's posts which address the submission given above.
To address the post directly: I am not sure what 'apologies' you refer to. It is my nature to apologize if I inadvertently hurt someone, as I do not wish to consciously cause others pain needlessly. Sometimes taking a radical stance is required and although I am not happy to do it, I will if needed.
I have never apologized for leaving ISKCON. I feel it was a very good thing for me to do, not only for me, but for others. I am definitely sorry that while still in ISKCON or even after leaving it, I could not do more for the sake of the abused and severely scarred children, exploited women, families, and other affected individuals, but the situation was far beyond my capacity at that time and I saw little hope in continuing the attempt. I am also not happy that people felt internal pain due to my departure but considering the nature of ISKCON there is no clean way to walk away from it. Sometimes simply walking away is the optimal move to make.
I have taken responsibility for sharing what I understand with those who were or are devotees to assist them to make sense of their own lives and to find the internal respect, peace and integrity that is their right.
I have tried to explain to those few who were interested why things happened as they did and some listened and accepted while others did not.
But to address your post directly, no, I did not apologize to any of the personalities listed by you. And although some of the personalities you listed have said or done things which you, if you knew, would fall into the category of actions which you might feel they should apologize for, I see no reason to ask them to do so. But then again, maybe you embrace a belief system which applauds their modes of action? We all see things relative to our understanding which makes conformity to a single view impossible.
Except for Gaura Govinda Goswami, I do not personally know the others.
I knew Gaura Govinda Goswami from the day he joined ISKCON. Out of appreciation for him, I paid for the printing of most of his books, I fought in the GBC for him to be a guru, and I tried in vain to get him to understand the implications of the actions of his disciples when they were considered to be a disturbance in temples in Europe. I would have so loved to just embrace the Gaura Govinda I knew as a kind and cultured sadhu before he died. Unfortunately for me, his transformation was so complete I lost contact with him and all feelings for him.
It is illustrative to see you request an apology rather than invite me to partake of the association of those who you obviously admire. I can only guess why you are doing this. You say you like the mood of these forums, yet your post has nothing to do with the topics that are there. I have seen that some feel I am the cause of the pain they felt in ISKCON or related organizations, or the cause of the crisis they are in now, or even more interesting, that their lives are somehow incomplete unless I publically and continually whip myself for all my sins and beg for forgiveness. Pardon me for wondering about this, but I rarely see anyone present these issues without a manifestation of their conviction that they are right, they have the most proper understanding, they are clear and devoted, and they shall attempt to deliver the fallen deviants from the ignorance that covers them. These attempts seem to be an unfortunate manifestation of insecurity and a lack of respect for others and the choices they make. This reflects on their lack of confidence and connection to their own hearts made more complex by their accepting a restricted view of reality which does not allow deep questioning and change.
I do not appreciate your post. However, I do appreciate Garuda Pandit's reply to you and therefore I have responded.
Haribol
All, please accept my utmost respects...
I am brand new on this forum but I hope no one will be upset if I express what I believe. I do not think it is nice, proper or ethical for anybody to judge, attack or defend Hari. I do not think that any of us are is a position to judge events that took place way above general knowledge. Therefore I would like to suggest to everyone to try not to form own opinions and attitudes towards what has been. Please allow me to state that I have seen Hari only once in my life, some 15-16 yrs ago and feel that, today, he is the same great person that inspired thosands of people and regardeless of state of relations between him and ISKCON, I will respect him
I am brand new on this forum but I hope no one will be upset if I express what I believe. I do not think it is nice, proper or ethical for anybody to judge, attack or defend Hari. I do not think that any of us are is a position to judge events that took place way above general knowledge. Therefore I would like to suggest to everyone to try not to form own opinions and attitudes towards what has been. Please allow me to state that I have seen Hari only once in my life, some 15-16 yrs ago and feel that, today, he is the same great person that inspired thosands of people and regardeless of state of relations between him and ISKCON, I will respect him
Who is interested ina book full of blank pages?